LeFever 12 Ga SxS

[Tihsho]

Hey all. During my biweekly trap days with one of my best friends we generally mix up what we shoot. He finally brought out one of his families side by sides, for the first time shooting one, and I did oddly well on consecutive rounds. The fit, recoil, and weight were ideal and now have turned me off looking into an OU a lot, but with that said there are some concerns I have when it comes to finding one of these for myself.

I'm very big into C&R rifles and pistols and have learned over the years what I need to look for to purchase a safe Mil Surp that isn't going to end up being only a wall hanger due to conditions that deem it unsafe to shoot. When it comes to shotguns with internal hammer setups... Well this is all new to me. With some poking around on the forums and the rest of the interwebz some obvious signs of wear and improper functions were covered; closed receiver gap, slop in receiver, barrel imperfections (cracks and pitting), as well as barrel material (i.e. if it's Damascus steel.) As I plan on using this as a trap only shotgun, I don't plan on shooting more than 2 3/4" shells that are no more than 1200 FPS. That said I know a lot of early shotguns were designed for lower FPS shells and wanted to see if there were any LeFever enthusiasts on here that could point me in the direction of what to look for; such as preferred years, how to determine barrel material, and what functional parts I need to check prior to purchasing.

Unless I'm buying it off someone I know who is meticulous with cleaning and upkeep, as well as uses it regularly, I do plan on bringing it to a shop to get a once over as well as getting anything fixed. My goal is to get an idea of what I need to look into so I'm not buying a project antique that's going to be a total overhaul and costing more than the over under's I've been eyeing.

Look forward to seeing what you guys have to say.

 

[Augie]

First I am a vintage SxS lover and own several, I am also a avid trapshooter and have shot as much as 10k rounds in a Trap season.
So for what it's worth I would not consider a vintage SxS for my regular trap gun, they will not hold up to the constant pounding that trap shooters put on their guns. You have guns that are already 100 years old that you have no idea how many rounds have been put thru it, wood usually has issues mainly at the head of the stock,small cracks, oil soaked, etc.
Repairs for a quality vintage SxS are expensive, time consuming and only done well by a small group of gunsmiths across the country that have a huge backlog of work.
For occasional use a SxS is fun for trap and all mine have shot a round or 2,usually when I first get them and trying to figure out POI. When I get serious about trap the modern trap gun that can withstand hundreds of thousands of rounds and has been fit to me comes out.
A vintage SXS really shines at sporting clays, a sport that mimics hunting situations which is what they were designed for.
As far as LeFever's there are 2, the original Dan LeFever, great vintage side plate SxS's, the vast majority with Damascus barrels and there were the LeFever Nitro's by Ithaca who bought the name. The Nitro is a solid workingman's guns that was popular 80 years ago, pic is of my Nitro that was restored.
If you want to shoot trap on a regular basis and possibly compete at it I would get a quality O/U and then carefully find a vintage SxS or 2 for fun.
If you are doing your biweekly trap shooting at AGC we can meet up and talk SxS's, I will do what I can to help you out. I'm the old cranky guy

 

[Tihsho]

Augie -

I'm no where close to looking into competing let alone have the time to set aside to compete. This is basically a shotgun for leisure for sporting clays and trap. I've always had my eye's on side by sides when I was a kid, but due to someone I know having a deadly accident with an 'antique' shotgun when I was a kid I strayed away. I've come to realize what I should look for for the safety aspect, so I've gotten past my aversion to break barrel style shotguns.

Oddly enough, AGC is where my friend and I go. We get there on some Sunday's when it opens so we can setup our thrower and practice/try out his collection of shotguns and my two pumps in peace before people roll in for the open trap day. I'll definitely let you know the next time we have planned to head over there.

I know some day I'll bite the buck (in this case) and get a nice OU. But right now I don't see the point as I don't have the time to go out every weekend and use it. With that said, OU's are ranged when it comes to price but I'm eyeing a nice Citori which I can't seem to stray from when I look at other OU's. Plus I get to kill two birds with one stone and have a nice leisure trap gun and fill my need to own more things historic and keep it alive and running.

That's a gorgeous Nitro by the way!

 

[Biggfoot44]

Not withstanding the above opinions above about *serious* Trap shooters , I'll take the OP at face value that he is looking for a medimum vintage American SxS for casual to moderate shooting , at a semi-reasonable price point.

Among the popular well made relative plain guns of their day ( and hence still easy to find and afordable today , and capable of using modern ammo of relevant length :

Le Fever Nitrol Special , mfg '21- '47 .

Ithica New Improved Double aka NID , mfg '25-'48 .

Somewhat newer , and more utilitarian , the Savage/ Stevens 311 , mfg '40-'89 .

The Savage/ Stevens was also sold under various House Brand names. Late production guns may have * genuine hardwood * stocks rather than walnut.

 

[Tihsho]

Thanks for that info Bigfoot. I've got an idea of what years might be what now when I find them. Had one member on here PM me about a much older model, but I'm not sure I'd like to push the limit.

I think you nailed the hammer on the head with your first statement. If I start going through a couple cases of shells every other week, then I'll start to look into OU's, but with a little less than a case every few weeks I don't see the need to go with an OU.

 

[campns]

I know that Ithaca had been saying for years it's going to release a OU named the phoenix; however, I wonder when they will venture into SxS's. Many memories using my great grandfathers 16 ga Ithaca on the farm busting out bunnies.

 

[Tihsho]

Agreed, there is something about a break away with dual triggers that is just satisfying to shoot.

 

[sxs]

First I am a vintage SxS lover and own several, I am also a avid trapshooter and have shot as much as 10k rounds in a Trap season.
So for what it's worth I would not consider a vintage SxS for my regular trap gun, they will not hold up to the constant pounding that trap shooters put on their guns. You have guns that are already 100 years old that you have no idea how many rounds have been put thru it, wood usually has issues mainly at the head of the stock,small cracks, oil soaked, etc.
Repairs for a quality vintage SxS are expensive, time consuming and only done well by a small group of gunsmiths across the country that have a huge backlog of work.
For occasional use a SxS is fun for trap and all mine have shot a round or 2,usually when I first get them and trying to figure out POI. When I get serious about trap the modern trap gun that can withstand hundreds of thousands of rounds and has been fit to me comes out.
A vintage SXS really shines at sporting clays, a sport that mimics hunting situations which is what they were designed for.
As far as LeFever's there are 2, the original Dan LeFever, great vintage side plate SxS's, the vast majority with Damascus barrels and there were the LeFever Nitro's by Ithaca who bought the name. The Nitro is a solid workingman's guns that was popular 80 years ago, pic is of my Nitro that was restored.
If you want to shoot trap on a regular basis and possibly compete at it I would get a quality O/U and then carefully find a vintage SxS or 2 for fun.
If you are doing your biweekly trap shooting at AGC we can meet up and talk SxS's, I will do what I can to help you out. I'm the old cranky guy

What Augie said (well stated).

 

[sxs]

Not withstanding the above opinions above about *serious* Trap shooters , I'll take the OP at face value that he is looking for a medimum vintage American SxS for casual to moderate shooting , at a semi-reasonable price point.

Among the popular well made relative plain guns of their day ( and hence still easy to find and afordable today , and capable of using modern ammo of relevant length :

Le Fever Nitrol Special , mfg '21- '47 .

Ithica New Improved Double aka NID , mfg '25-'48 .

Somewhat newer , and more utilitarian , the Savage/ Stevens 311 , mfg '40-'89 .

The Savage/ Stevens was also sold under various House Brand names. Late production guns may have * genuine hardwood * stocks rather than walnut.

While inexpensive (relatively) the Savage 311 and the Savage Fox Model B can be workhorses. I wouldn't shoot 10's of thousands of rounds through them, but 50 here and 100 there should be fine for a long while. IF you get anywhere near serious, even just shooting 50 or 100 rounds weekly all through the summer, however, do take Augie's advice to heart

EDIT: I know where a Savage 311 is (at least I think the guy still has it) for around $350. It's been pretty well cared for with just some very minor finish wear (mostly the case colors turning patina). I would guess it's a 60's or 70's gun. PM me if interested.

 

[Tihsho]

Would 100 rounds say every few weeks be too rough for one of these old gals? Generally do 4-5 rounds (100-125) when I go to AGC. With that in mind, I still use my Remington 870 Express.

 

[Augie]

Would 100 rounds say every few weeks be too rough for one of these old gals? Generally do 4-5 rounds (100-125) when I go to AGC. With that in mind, I still use my Remington 870 Express.

Couple hundred rounds a month would probably be ok using appropriate ammo. I reload and use low pressure, under 8k psi, 1oz loads and I don't see any appreciable wear to the AH Fox that is my main clays SxS but it will see less than a 1000 rounds a year.
Speaking of Fox's, the AH Fox guns are arguably the best of the American SxS, while the higher grades are quite pricey Fox had the Sterlingworth which was Fox's workingman's gun, a nice example in 12 gauge can be found in the 600 to 1000 range, a very nice one was sold on this forum recently.
With vintage SxS's the 12 gauges will be the least expensive while any of the sub-gauges be double or triple in price

 

[Tihsho]

Thanks again Augie!

I sadly don't reload, I probably should :/ For shotguns running very affordable birdshot/game/sporting loads I never really saw the point. That said I was looking at it from the perspective of modern shotguns. Now I can see that reloading is part and parcel of vintage shotgun ownership.

Oddly enough, my friend own a few Fox's. Sadly they are in a wall hanger state and would need some professional work done to get them into being shooters.