Legality and sensibility of keeping a firearm at work with owner's permission.

[Fishguy]

I am the operations manager of a service oriented business in Maryland and we just had to fire an employee today. He got very upset this morning when it all came down and is of the mindset that he did nothing wrong to get fired. Now I do not think he has any violent tendancies, (mostly just self destructive) but he is an overall dirtball (heavy addictions, constant lies, and thievory) and he was extremely upset at the bad news.

My question for you folks is this, I am considering bringing either a handgun or more likely something like a Hi-Point Carbine to the office tomorrow and possibly for the next couple of weeks out of concern that he may decide to come in and do something foolish. I am in the office for a couple of hours in the morning everyday getting myself and all the other guys out on the road and the ex-employee of course knows our routine. I am also in the office alone for some time in the mornings as well.

Should I bring something in or would that be illegal/foolish on my part? I would like to bring one of my inexpensive handguns in and keep it in the desk drawer (CZ 82?), but that might be even a bit more of a legal hurdle. That is why I am leaning more to the pistol caliber carbine since it is at least a long gun. The owner of the business does not care and the office is locked tight when neither myself nor the owner are there, so what do you think?

 

[Markp]

Which is more important, your life or following the law? (Assuming that you could not legally transport a handgun to work in the People's Republic of Maryland.) I don't see how you would run afoul of the law on private property with authorization from the property owner. I wouldn't leave it in a desk, I would carry either concealed or openly on private property.

It wouldn't be a question in my mind, I would take a gun to work, however I would probably opt for something like a CAR-15 or Saiga Shotgun. I have highlighted the relevant Maryland code below.

Mark


(1) Except as provided in subsection (b) of this section, a person may not:

(i) wear, carry, or transport a handgun, whether concealed or open, on or about the person;
(ii) wear, carry, or knowingly transport a handgun, whether concealed or open, in a vehicle traveling on a road or parking lot generally used by the public, highway, waterway, or airway of the State;
(iii) violate item (i) or (ii) of this paragraph while on public school property in the State; or
(iv) violate item (i) or (ii) of this paragraph with the deliberate purpose of injuring or killing another person.

(b) Exceptions.- This section does not prohibit:

(1) the wearing, carrying, or transporting of a handgun by a person who is on active assignment engaged in law enforcement, is authorized at the time and under the circumstances to wear, carry, or transport the handgun as part of the person's official equipment, and is:

(i) a law enforcement official of the United States, the State, or a county or city of the State;
(ii) a member of the armed forces of the United States or of the National Guard on duty or traveling to or from duty;
(iii) a law enforcement official of another state or subdivision of another state temporarily in this State on official business;
(iv) a correctional officer or warden of a correctional facility in the State;
(v) a sheriff or full-time assistant or deputy sheriff of the State; or
(vi) a temporary or part-time sheriff's deputy;

(2) the wearing, carrying, or transporting of a handgun by a person to whom a permit to wear, carry, or transport the handgun has been issued under Title 5, Subtitle 3 of the Public Safety Article;

(3) the carrying of a handgun on the person or in a vehicle while the person is transporting the handgun to or from the place of legal purchase or sale, or to or from a bona fide repair shop, or between bona fide residences of the person, or between the bona fide residence and place of business of the person, if the business is operated and owned substantially by the person if each handgun is unloaded and carried in an enclosed case or an enclosed holster;

(4) the wearing, carrying, or transporting by a person of a handgun used in connection with an organized military activity, a target shoot, formal or informal target practice, sport shooting event, hunting, a Department of Natural Resources-sponsored firearms and hunter safety class, trapping, or a dog obedience training class or show, while the person is engaged in, on the way to, or returning from that activity if each handgun is unloaded and carried in an enclosed case or an enclosed holster;

(5) the moving by a bona fide gun collector of part or all of the collector's gun collection from place to place for public or private exhibition if each handgun is unloaded and carried in an enclosed case or an enclosed holster;

(6) the wearing, carrying, or transporting of a handgun by a person on real estate that the person owns or leases or where the person resides or within the confines of a business establishment that the person owns or leases;

(7) the wearing, carrying, or transporting of a handgun by a supervisory employee:

(i) in the course of employment;
(ii) within the confines of the business establishment in which the supervisory employee is employed; and
(iii) when so authorized by the owner or manager of the business establishment; or

(8) the carrying or transporting of a signal pistol or other visual distress signal approved by the United States Coast Guard in a vessel on the waterways of the State or, if the signal pistol or other visual distress signal is unloaded and carried in an enclosed case, in a vehicle.

 

[Threeband]

(7) the wearing, carrying, or transporting of a handgun by a supervisory employee:

(i) in the course of employment;
(ii) within the confines of the business establishment in which the supervisory employee is employed; and
(iii) when so authorized by the owner or manager of the business establishment; or

I would try to get something in writing from the owner, if possible.

Then I would apply the principle, "Concealed means concealed."

Also be very careful not to set foot off of company property while carrying.


IANAL.

 

[Calengor]

Isn't the main issue the transport? You can't legally take it TO work unless you're a designated collector taking it to show part of your collection to your boss. Even with permission from the owner, if you're not part owner yourself you're not allowed to take it there otherwise. Or so I think. Paging Novus, Non-Esquire to the thread.

 

[Inigoes]

Should I bring something in or would that be illegal/foolish on my part?

Are you sure you're not over reacting or overly-sensitive to the situation?

Bottom line you have to answer yourself: Is it worth it to pay the price if caught breaking the law?

More importantly you are an employee of that company eventhough you are an operations manager. what is your company policy? Is carrying worth losing your job over?

Are there other ways to harden your location to prevent the return of the ex-employee you are so concerned over?

Edit: Since you are management, you have to remain calm cool and collected, so your employees don't get frazzled.

 

[Threeband]

I think the point is, that with the owner's permission, he should be legal to carry on company property, just like a gun shop employee. He is a supervisor, in fact a manager.

(7) the wearing, carrying, or transporting of a handgun by a supervisory employee:
(i) in the course of employment;
(ii) within the confines of the business establishment in which the supervisory employee is employed; and
(iii) when so authorized by the owner or manager of the business establishment; or

IANAL

IANAL

IANAL

And it is devoutly to be hoped that no one else would ever know that he had taken this apparently entirely legal precaution.

IANAL

IANAL

"Concealed means concealed."

Concealment for the sake of discretion, not because of any laws being broken. I assume he would be acting entirely within the law.

 

[travistheone]

If you were really worried about this guy would you be asked the internets opinion?

If you think you are going to need the gun, bring it and don't think another thought about it.

 

[Fishguy]

So, reading the comments and the law as carefully as I am able to, it appears the legal issue is actually getting the handgun to the office; there appears to be no legal way to transport it there. Other than that, once the weapon is there, since the owner of the company has no problems with it and I am in a supervisory position, all should be kosher.

Of course, the big problem is the moral one; am I in fact overreacting to a sensitive situation, as Inigoes asks? Who knows? I hope i am overreacting.

Everybody says that someone should have seen the red flags from this Army Major in Texas and with the guy in Virginia Tech. The guy we let go today, quite frankly, probably has as many warning flags than either one of those people in those situations. In hindsight, he probably should have been let go much sooner than he was, if even ever hired, but it is a small business and we have known the guy from before and he had both the owner and myself convinced he turned his life around.

Thanks for the input, I guess there is no easy answer to this dilemma nor is there going to be a answer that stays out of the grey areas.

 

[travistheone]

I would take it, or have the owner bring a gun of his in.

 

[MDFF2008]

If I remember right, Maryland's gun law does allow someone to transport to and from a range, but it doesn't say "directly" like California's law does.

 

[woodstock]

i say get a restraining on his ass. take it from there.

 

[novus collectus]

I would try to get something in writing from the owner, if possible.

Then I would apply the principle, "Concealed means concealed."

Also be very careful not to set foot off of company property while carrying.


IANAL.

4-203 seems to apply equally to both concealed and openly carried. If it makes exceptions for carry, it is open or concealed as I (and many others) read it.

As I read 4-203, a manager can give permission to a supervisory amployee....or give himself permission. The way the law is written it does not seem as if owner's permission is necessary.

 

[novus collectus]

Isn't the main issue the transport? You can't legally take it TO work unless you're a designated collector taking it to show part of your collection to your boss. Even with permission from the owner, if you're not part owner yourself you're not allowed to take it there otherwise. Or so I think. Paging Novus, Non-Esquire to the thread.

There are a few things to consider. One, is there a time where he crossess state lines out of and back into MD, can he transport under the fed transport law. Two, is he a bona fide collector. Three, is it legal to convert to a carbine and then back to a pistol again once the trip is completed (many disagree with me on the legality of this one)? Four, is it possible to ship the handgun to the address at work addresed to himself?

Now as far as the Hi-Point carbine......no problem at all whatsoever keeping it loaded at work nor transporting it to work (as long as it is unloaded when in or on a vehicle). You can also have an antiue or antique replica handgun at work as well and transport it to work (unloaded when in or on a vehicle). The handgun transport law (4-203) ONLY applies to short barreled shotguns, short barreled rifles and handguns which are not antiques or replicas of antiques. SInce a carbine is not an SBR or a handgun, it is not covered under 4-203.

Fishguy, if you want to avoid gray areas of the law in regards to transport, have the Hi Point carbine at work.

 

[novus collectus]

By the way, examples of antique handguns or handguns considered antiques because of them being replicas (which qualify) are in the picture.
Cartridge firing gun at the top is an antique which is exluded from 4-203.
So is the third gun from the top on the right and the first gun on the left which is pointing down which is a cap and ball revolver. (third gun down on the left which is pointing right is also an antique)

The cartridge firing gun on the top is a good example of what is possible for self defense in the office.....but if a gun in way better condition and larger caliber. Any cartridge firing gun made before 1899 is an antiwue and is excluded from the purview of 4-203.
The gun pointing down is an antique because it is a relica of a gun made before 1899, but does not fire moder fixed ammunition and so therefore can be tranpsorted to work without havinbg to worry about 4-203. However, being a blackpowder gun the smoke it would produce indoors might make it undesireable......but there is one more gun to consider and that is the second gun from the bottom.....

THe second gun from the bottom is an antique [replica] when it has the cap and ball cylinder in it, but modern when it has the cartridge conversion cylinder in it in in the picture. It is under the purview of 4-203 when transported with the cartridge conversion cylinder in it because it is not an antique, but if tranpsorted with the cap and ball cylinder in it and the person does not insert the cartridge conversion cylinder until after getting to work, then one does not have to worry about violating 4-203 during transport because 4-203 does not apply to antiques or antique replicas (which qualify).
Now the only gray area I can evnision is if the conversion cylinder was in teh car at the same time as the handgun, but that is unlikely since it is not inserted in the handgun and if the C&B cylinder was inserted it would be hard to claim on the LEO's part, but to avoid the gray area entirely simply make two trips, one with the handgun and the other with the cylinder.

 

[Fishguy]

There are a few things to consider. One, is there a time where he crossess state lines out of and back into MD, can he transport under the fed transport law. Two, is he a bona fide collector. Three, is it legal to convert to a carbine and then back to a pistol again once the trip is completed (many disagree with me on the legality of this one)? Four, is it possible to ship the handgun to the address at work addresed to himself?

Now as far as the Hi-Point carbine......no problem at all whatsoever keeping it loaded at work nor transporting it to work (as long as it is unloaded when in or on a vehicle). You can also have an antiue or antique replica handgun at work as well and transport it to work (unloaded when in or on a vehicle). The handgun transport law (4-203) ONLY applies to short barreled shotguns, short barreled rifles and handguns which are not antiques or replicas of antiques. SInce a carbine is not an SBR or a handgun, it is not covered under 4-203.

Fishguy, if you want to avoid gray areas of the law in regards to transport, have the Hi Point carbine at work.

Thanks for the fantastic information, I am in awe. Question, what is this Federal transport law you speak of? Thanks again for all the help in sorting this issue out.

 

[Inigoes]

I Hope your day was un-eventful, just routine.

 

[Fishguy]

I Hope your day was un-eventful, just routine.

Sure was, thanks.

 

[Inigoes]

Sure was, thanks.

Sometimes our senses can get the best of us. Just stay calm cool and collected. and fortify your work location (which is always an ongoing task).

 

[Fishguy]

Sometimes our senses can get the best of us. Just stay calm cool and collected. and fortify your work location (which is always an ongoing task).

Hmmmm... trip wires, razor wire, and punji pits might do the trick...

 

[Echo Victor]

Why don’t you just carry a samurai sword?

Ok, seriously though, you would probably be most vulnerable entering and exiting your place of work and your vehicle. Even if you do decide to CC, you won’t be able to do it outside if the parking lot is public.