MD and MSP geting Heat from the FBI and ATF

[04RWon]

I guess what I am saying is something official delivered to you or I will still be debated. If presented to the FFLs and the FFL association, $hit will happen. I believe a few of the FFL and IPs here have even commented that they are taking the direction and guidance about the wait to release from the association.

Better yet, ask him to email all the FFLs an official document.

Yeah i was thinking just an email to me still may be questionable. Im hoping for atleast an attachment on MSP letterhead with signatures. I did say i would volunteer my time to help get the info out there. If need be ill get all dressed up, drive to Pikesville, grab a bunch of copies of the letter and the original and start giving them to local dealers. Im in Elkridge so i can only go so far. But ill gladly meet up with some other guys, or mail and make sure it gets to all FFL's.

 

[04RWon]

It's the Maryland Licensed Dealers Association. They appear to have done so little regarding the biggest issue their dealers have faced in years, that a common citizen (no offense, HRDWRK ) was able to get a written response from the MSP Commander.

FFLs are not on the same page and the customer is left twisting in the wind.

Yep, this is why we need to get to the bottom of it. Its our money sitting on shelves for months. We deserve to know whos to blame, so far we though MSP. However if what this Commander said turns out to be legit, and FFL's know it..... Or they dont know it and need to be informed.

 

[HRDWRK]

I posted the following in another thread in the WC and feel as though most of my thoughts apply to this thread as well. I will edit some of the content!


Originally Posted by HRDWRK
This was from the thread. xxxxxxxxxx

I emailed all the Maryland Assembly yesterday about the wait times and what they heard in testimony and ask them what they were going to do to correct, That the wait times are over 50 days now.
I heard back from only these 3,

Stone, Norman Senator (Laptop) <Senator.N.Stone@senate.state.md.us>

Senator Stone has contacted the Maryland State Police already and they are overwhelmed with the amount of applicants and they are working hard to bring it down to the 7 days. In the past, there has never been this many applicants. JoAnne, Legislative Assistant

Ready, Justin Delegate
2:17 PM (59 minutes ago)
Mr. xxxx,

Thank you for sharing your concerns with me. I am one of your Delegates from Carroll County. I agree that it is absurd that you and others are having to wait in excess of up to 2 months for your guns to clear after purchasing.

Recently, we finished putting up a tough fight to prevent the worst of the Governor's gun control from going into effect in Maryland. We were not successful in their banning of AR 15's but we did stop the mandatory registration of all guns owned prior to the law going into effect. I do see your connection that you are worried about not receiving your purchased guns before the law goes into effect and your concern about how that will effect your purchase. I do want to stress that as long as your application is in before the law you will be fine.

There is still no excuse for the wait time being as long as it is. With the demand today that time will obviously be longer, but 60 days is inexcusable. I am currently working on a solution which would decrease this wait time with some of my colleagues. I will be sure to keep you updated, when we find a solution to this issue.

And the best one is this one!

Sophocleus, Ted Delegate
2:28 PM (50 minutes ago)

to thomas.williams,
Hello Mr. Williams,

Marian Meyers here – legislative aide to Delegate Sophocleus

I am forwarding the following email for your attention and response.

Thank you for looking into this matter.

With much appreciation, Marian

Included with the email was the State Police email address.
thomas.williams@maryland.gov Commander MSP
I do not know if I would email however it is interesting that she forwarded my email! I guess my request will now be on hold even longer or denied.
I got a response from The Commander!


Thomas Williams -State Police- <thomas.williams@maryland.gov>
4:56 PM (0 minutes ago)

to me, Ted.Sophocleus
Mr. Txxxxx
The current backlog for the firearms background check is 50 days. The law
states that the state has seven days to complete the required checks. On
the eighth day if a dealer has not heard from MSP the dealer may release
the firearm without penalty.
Most dealers have decided to hold onto the guns pending the completed
checks and we applaud their patience.
The Maryland General Assembly took action by providing us additional
manpower and technology to help alleviate the problem. But it takes time
to hire qualified people and purchase the right software and equipment. We
are working on it. The problem creating the backlog is a combination of
record high volume gun sales, old technology and limited qualified
personnel.
If you have any additional questions please feel free to contact me
directly.
Tom

I emailed this to Ted.Sophocleus office! If you read the whole email string you will see that what information I received was though his office. The email is from the Commander of the MDS!

I understand and agree with ALL FFL in the State of Maryland that does not want to complete after the 7 days. If something happens with that gun in this State with the people who wants to sue it would be devastating to that Gun Shop and to our 2A.
If you were the owner of the FFL you would look out for your lively hood and protect it at all costs. Even more since you do not know what Oct 1st brings to you or your Lively hood.

We have all contributed to the current state we find ourselves in today.

The purpose of this thread is not to beat the FFL up as in some threads that is what it has become.

This is about getting information in writing that I can take to the Second Amendment Foundation and see if they can help us in the making changes to the current situation we find ourselves in with the wait times.

MDS, NRA nor any other organization can help us by themselves and I feel that as many organizations that can help put pressure on the MDS and Martin the better. http://www.saf.org/ has been involeved with other Gun law changes in other States and has shown interest in filling intent within the State.

Please I would ask that We stop saying its the FFL and ALL agree its the MDS and Martin and our current MD assembly.

Sorry for the long post.

 

[04RWon]

I posted the following in another thread in the WC and feel as though most of my thoughts apply to this thread as well. I will edit some of the content!


Originally Posted by HRDWRK
This was from the thread. xxxxxxxxxx

I emailed all the Maryland Assembly yesterday about the wait times and what they heard in testimony and ask them what they were going to do to correct, That the wait times are over 50 days now.
I heard back from only these 3,

Stone, Norman Senator (Laptop) <Senator.N.Stone@senate.state.md.us>

Senator Stone has contacted the Maryland State Police already and they are overwhelmed with the amount of applicants and they are working hard to bring it down to the 7 days. In the past, there has never been this many applicants. JoAnne, Legislative Assistant

Ready, Justin Delegate
2:17 PM (59 minutes ago)
Mr. xxxx,

Thank you for sharing your concerns with me. I am one of your Delegates from Carroll County. I agree that it is absurd that you and others are having to wait in excess of up to 2 months for your guns to clear after purchasing.

Recently, we finished putting up a tough fight to prevent the worst of the Governor's gun control from going into effect in Maryland. We were not successful in their banning of AR 15's but we did stop the mandatory registration of all guns owned prior to the law going into effect. I do see your connection that you are worried about not receiving your purchased guns before the law goes into effect and your concern about how that will effect your purchase. I do want to stress that as long as your application is in before the law you will be fine.

There is still no excuse for the wait time being as long as it is. With the demand today that time will obviously be longer, but 60 days is inexcusable. I am currently working on a solution which would decrease this wait time with some of my colleagues. I will be sure to keep you updated, when we find a solution to this issue.

And the best one is this one!

Sophocleus, Ted Delegate
2:28 PM (50 minutes ago)

to thomas.williams,
Hello Mr. Williams,

Marian Meyers here – legislative aide to Delegate Sophocleus

I am forwarding the following email for your attention and response.

Thank you for looking into this matter.

With much appreciation, Marian

Included with the email was the State Police email address.
thomas.williams@maryland.gov Commander MSP
I do not know if I would email however it is interesting that she forwarded my email! I guess my request will now be on hold even longer or denied.
I got a response from The Commander!


Thomas Williams -State Police- <thomas.williams@maryland.gov>
4:56 PM (0 minutes ago)

to me, Ted.Sophocleus
Mr. Txxxxx
The current backlog for the firearms background check is 50 days. The law
states that the state has seven days to complete the required checks. On
the eighth day if a dealer has not heard from MSP the dealer may release
the firearm without penalty.
Most dealers have decided to hold onto the guns pending the completed
checks and we applaud their patience.
The Maryland General Assembly took action by providing us additional
manpower and technology to help alleviate the problem. But it takes time
to hire qualified people and purchase the right software and equipment. We
are working on it. The problem creating the backlog is a combination of
record high volume gun sales, old technology and limited qualified
personnel.
If you have any additional questions please feel free to contact me
directly.
Tom

I emailed this to Ted.Sophocleus office! If you read the whole email string you will see that what information I received was though his office. The email is from the Commander of the MDS!

I understand and agree with ALL FFL in the State of Maryland that does not want to complete after the 7 days. If something happens with that gun in this State with the people who wants to sue it would be devastating to that Gun Shop and to our 2A.
If you were the owner of the FFL you would look out for your lively hood and protect it at all costs. Even more since you do not know what Oct 1st brings to you or your Lively hood.

We have all contributed to the current state we find ourselves in today.

The purpose of this thread is not to beat the FFL up as in some threads that is what it has become.

This is about getting information in writing that I can take to the Second Amendment Foundation and see if they can help us in the making changes to the current situation we find ourselves in with the wait times.

MDS, NRA nor any other organization can help us by themselves and I feel that as many organizations that can help put pressure on the MDS and Martin the better. http://www.saf.org/ has been involeved with other Gun law changes in other States and has shown interest in filling intent within the State.

Please I would ask that We stop saying its the FFL and ALL agree its the MDS and Martin and our current MD assembly.

Sorry for the long post.

Coping my response

According to what the Commander said the FFL can release the firearm after 7 days. Its legal. How does that affect the FFL if something happens after that? Like i said elsewhere, an FFL cant help it if someone whos not prohibited goes out, passes the check, goes home and blows their head off. So whats the difference here? The FFL did their part, noone case ask for anything else. I sure hope they can stay in business here in MD after OCT 1st, god forbid they move out of state where they dont have the MSP to hold their hand.... Its not about bashing anyone. Its about getting to the bottom of the delay. If the FFL was under the belief that they could not release the firearm until they recieved a not disapproved then the blame falls on MSP. If the FFL knows they can release after 7 days even without a response from MSP, LEGALLY, than the wait falls on the FFL. MSP and Omalley may be delaying the processing but all they have to say is "hey, the ffl can release after 7 days no matter what" and they would be right.

If im missing something please tell me.

The laws have been reviewed and reviewed again. MSP is responsible for doing the NICS check. Even still, the Commander, and the law both say after 7 days EVEN WITHOUT A RESPONSE FROM MSP.

 

[HiballHiside]

An easy change to this would be to have the NICS check performed immediately & returned to the FFL as it was intended to be.

Is it possible for FFL's to volunteer to do these NICS checks at MSP?

 

[Wojo]

An easy change to this would be to have the NICS check performed immediately & returned to the FFL as it was intended to be.

Is it possible for FFL's to volunteer to do these NICS checks at MSP?

What you are asking for is to remove MSP as the PoC for NICS. Currently as designated they are the only approved purveyor of the NICS number for regulated in MD.

 

[HiballHiside]

Coping my response

According to what the Commander said the FFL can release the firearm after 7 days. Its legal. How does that affect the FFL if something happens after that? Like i said elsewhere, an FFL cant help it if someone whos not prohibited goes out, passes the check, goes home and blows their head off. So whats the difference here? The FFL did their part, noone case ask for anything else. I sure hope they can stay in business here in MD after OCT 1st, god forbid they move out of state where they dont have the MSP to hold their hand.... Its not about bashing anyone. Its about getting to the bottom of the delay. If the FFL was under the belief that they could not release the firearm until they recieved a not disapproved then the blame falls on MSP. If the FFL knows they can release after 7 days even without a response from MSP, LEGALLY, than the wait falls on the FFL. MSP and Omalley may be delaying the processing but all they have to say is "hey, the ffl can release after 7 days no matter what" and they would be right.

If im missing something please tell me.

The laws have been reviewed and reviewed again. MSP is responsible for doing the NICS check. Even still, the Commander, and the law both say after 7 days EVEN WITHOUT A RESPONSE FROM MSP.

I think the issue is not strickly legality...it's "Liability". In Civil court the FFL could be deemed negligent for releasing a firearm to someone without any background check. It doesn't matter if it's legal to do so.

http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/ToddHamline.htm

 

[HiballHiside]

What you are asking for is to remove MSP as the PoC for NICS. Currently as designated they are the only approved purveyor of the NICS number for regulated in MD.

No, not really. We know that's not going to happen...So the suggestion was to have FFL's (who know how to do NICS Checks go to MSP to help out) So "MSP" still is technically the PoC.

I'm tossing out an idea with limited understanding of FFL responsibility, How MSP does their checks etc...

 

[Wojo]

Gotcha... Not sure they (MSP) care enough to get help from civilians and i am not sure of the privacy issues.

I think that if MSP wanted to help they would temporarily suspend the POC status and allow the FFLs to contact NICS after day 7. Most states contact NICS directly, just not this lovely POC state!

 

[Ab_Normal]

No, not really. We know that's not going to happen...So the suggestion was to have FFL's (who know how to do NICS Checks go to MSP to help out) So "MSP" still is technically the PoC.

I'm tossing out an idea with limited understanding of FFL responsibility, How MSP does their checks etc...

It could happen IF the ATF/FBI sees that the MSP is not following the brady law.

 

[L0gic]

Mr. Txxxxx
The current backlog for the firearms background check is 50 days. The law
states that the state has seven days to complete the required checks. On
the eighth day if a dealer has not heard from MSP the dealer may release
the firearm without penalty.

Wow. An official stating what Ab_normal and fabro said several threads ago. If an FFL chooses to do this, there is no blowback in regards to their Federal or State Firearm license.

I don't know what information is conveyed from the FFL to NICS on unregulated purchases, but if its just a person's PII and not the type of firearm, why can't they run a regular NICS on the 8th day with the customer there before releasing the regulated firearm? That would at the very least cover 99% of things as to why a person shouldn't be taking a handgun home.

Instead we have FFLs that refuse to release bona fide unregulated firearms properly (in my case) and we have to have MSP contact them to get it straightened out. WTF!!!

Where's my rag doll, I need to go smash something

 

[Ab_Normal]

Wow. An official stating what Ab_normal and fabro said several threads ago. If an FFL chooses to do this, there is no blowback in regards to their Federal or State Firearm license.

I don't know what information is conveyed from the FFL to NICS on unregulated purchases, but if its just a person's PII and not the type of firearm, why can't they run a regular NICS on the 8th day with the customer there before releasing the regulated firearm? That would at the very least cover 99% of things as to why a person shouldn't be taking a handgun home.

Instead we have FFLs that refuse to release bona fide unregulated firearms properly (in my case) and we have to have MSP contact them to get it straightened out. WTF!!!

Where's my rag doll, I need to go smash something

I believe the NICS person asks the type of firearm being transferred during the call.

 

[drwalther]

Unfortunately, the "Commander" didn't tell the whole story. According to
the owner of one of my local gun stores, MSP called him personally and told him
NOT to release any regulated firearms until he got notification from them
to do so. So, not wanting to bring down the wrath of MSP (countless
inspections) this guy and all the other gun shop owners are doing as told.
Our local gun dealers are well aware of the 7 day law. There just not
going to risk their business by going against the MSP rules of "make it up
as we go".

 

[obnoxious2]

Unfortunately, the "Commander" didn't tell the whole story. According to
the owner of one of my local gun stores, MSP called him personally and told him
NOT to release any regulated firearms until he got notification from them
to do so. So, not wanting to bring down the wrath of MSP (countless
inspections) this guy and all the other gun shop owners are doing as told.
Our local gun dealers are well aware of the 7 day law. There just not
going to risk their business by going against the MSP rules of "make it up
as we go".

They really aren't risking much cause after Oct 1, I see alot of them having "forced retirement"

 

[L0gic]

They really aren't risking much cause after Oct 1, I see alot of them having "forced retirement"

That would be the most comical thing to come out of this. 9/30/13 every single person who is still waiting (more than 7 days) gets a call to come and get it.

 

[Merlin]

They really aren't risking much cause after Oct 1, I see alot of them having "forced retirement"

Well it sounds very easy for you to say. I would like to see how you would place your business on the line as you pissed off the MSP that can make life as a gun dealer very difficult for you.

 

[drwalther]

Well it sounds very easy for you to say. I would like to see how you would place your business on the line as you pissed off the MSP that can make life as a gun dealer very difficult for you.

yeah, it's easy for us to goad them to stand up and be PATRIOTS and defy The Man, but it's not a reasonable request of them when they depend so heavily on The Man for permission, and The Man can make their lives VERY hard in the future, legal or not, if they thumb their noses when they've been asked nicely to play ball.

 

[Merlin]

Unfortunately, the "Commander" didn't tell the whole story. According to
the owner of one of my local gun stores, MSP called him personally and told him
NOT to release any regulated firearms until he got notification from them
to do so. So, not wanting to bring down the wrath of MSP (countless
inspections) this guy and all the other gun shop owners are doing as told.
Our local gun dealers are well aware of the 7 day law. There just not
going to risk their business by going against the MSP rules of "make it up
as we go".

And they would be stupid to do anything but play ball with the MSP. Don't forget the state fire marshal works for the MSP. I can see the inspection failing now.

 

[2AHokie]

Well it sounds very easy for you to say. I would like to see how you would place your business on the line as you pissed off the MSP that can make life as a gun dealer very difficult for you.

yeah, it's easy for us to goad them to stand up and be PATRIOTS and defy The Man, but it's not a reasonable request of them when they depend so heavily on The Man for permission, and The Man can make their lives VERY hard in the future, legal or not, if they thumb their noses when they've been asked nicely to play ball.

I see this sentiment all the time, but it's very unclear what, if anything, the MSP could actually do as retribution.

Also, if every dealer was doing it together, it would be impossible for the MSP to single a dealer out.

 

[Rack&Roll]

Time to demand that the Maryland State Police run the instant NICS check sometime during the 7-day waiting period and allow regulated guns to be given to the approved buyer on the 8th day. THEN, if something in their check on the 13 other databases turns up something then let the MSP deploy their Super Swat Squads to retrieve the firearm for some unpaid parking ticket. It's the 13 other database checks that is taking 70 days while the 99% reliable NICS check takes 20 minutes. If the state wants to play patty-cake checking the other 13 databases for 9 weeks then have at it...but the firearm would be out there. Maybe that would give them the incentive to stop the footdragging. Besides, the Super Swats would love the practice...

I mean really, what's to stop the MSP from checking 50 databases? Firearms are a constitutional right. Isn't there some authority that declares that 3 databases checks is enough to delay a constitutional right instead of 13, 25, or 50 checks?