MSP advisory on AR pistols with braces

[Blaster229]

I still don't know anything. I'm not touching my MPX K, but I have a 10.5" pistol I want to do and then slap something on it.

 

[Rabu Rabu]

So far as I'm reading they'll accept sub 29" non rimfire semi autos if you....leave the brace on it?

lol, lmao.

 

[CrawfishStu]

Just got 2 approvals back including one that is less than 29 oal. There is a notification that references the MSP advisory.

Was the less than 29" one rimfire or centerfire?

 

[Alutacon]

Question:

Was the less than 29" one you got approval for purchased that way or did you build it yourself? Does this matter?

Legally it does.not matter. I have 2 Form 1s in: one for a firearm I already had and one for a firearm I purchased post Jan. 31st. Expect they'll both be approved.

 

[Alutacon]

Mebbe I wasn't "over thinking" it after all...

You're joking right?

 

[inkd]

Mebbe I wasn't "over thinking" it after all...

I know, right. It's so crystal clear I don't know why anyone is having trouble deciphering this.

So, what was the combination of parts you used to get to 29in ??

 

[outrider58]

I know, right. It's so crystal clear I don't know why anyone is having trouble deciphering this.

So, what was the combination of parts you used to get to 29in ??

What are you building?

Start here if it is an AR build.

Long Buffer Tube - Just Right Carbines

Long buffer tube, internal depth 8.5".

justrightcarbines.com

 

[Occam]

So I've got a baby Scorpion purchased with a brace. Still foggy on this. I tell the AFT I want the free stamp on it so THEY will consider it an officially blessed SBR that I then need to do paperwork on when I drive over the state line ... but Maryland will ignore all of this because they think I still just own a pistol, even with the brace? And everyone is happy, except for me because now I can't just take my pistol with me to WV for fun without doing federal paperwork?

 

[inkd]

What are you building?

Start here if it is an AR build.

Long Buffer Tube - Just Right Carbines

Long buffer tube, internal depth 8.5".

justrightcarbines.com

An AR. I'll put in a form 1 but will just make it over Maryland requirement to make it easy.

 

[outrider58]

An AR. I'll put in a form 1 but will just make it over Maryland requirement to make it easy.

It mostly depends on what barrel length you are going for. A 10.5" barrel will get a 5.56 or 300blk there with no more 'special' parts. Pistol caliber barrels will come up a little short because of the cartridge length. If you go shorter in barrel length, then you'll need to do some parts juggling. You can add a LAW type buffer tube folder, along with the aforementioned longer buffer tube and you can gain another 1/2" or so if put the Magpul extended butt pad if you use a Magpul stock. They are not completely interchangeable so keep that in mind. Assuming it will be suppressed, many now make tri-lug mounts for different cans and those will add almost an inch in some cases. Pin and welded.

 

[Alutacon]

So I've got a baby Scorpion purchased with a brace. Still foggy on this. I tell the AFT I want the free stamp on it so THEY will consider it an officially blessed SBR that I then need to do paperwork on when I drive over the state line ... but Maryland will ignore all of this because they think I still just own a pistol, even with the brace? And everyone is happy, except for me because now I can't just take my pi

So I've got a baby Scorpion purchased with a brace. Still foggy on this. I tell the AFT I want the free stamp on it so THEY will consider it an officially blessed SBR that I then need to do paperwork on when I drive over the state line ... but Maryland will ignore all of this because they think I still just own a pistol, even with the brace? And everyone is happy, except for me because now I can't just take my pistol with me to WV for fun without doing federal paperwork?

That pretty much sums it up.
stol with me to WV for fun without doing federal paperwork?

 

[Alutacon]

An AR. I'll put in a form 1 but will just make it over Maryland requirement to make it easy.

How will that make it easy?

 

[RRomig]

So I've got a baby Scorpion purchased with a brace. Still foggy on this. I tell the AFT I want the free stamp on it so THEY will consider it an officially blessed SBR that I then need to do paperwork on when I drive over the state line ... but Maryland will ignore all of this because they think I still just own a pistol, even with the brace? And everyone is happy, except for me because now I can't just take my pistol with me to WV for fun without doing federal paperwork?

No fog at all. I’d say you’ve got it.

 

[Bountied]

How will that make it easy?

Who's trying to make things easy?

 

[Saberwalk]

I am a lawyer and I'm confused. Have an APC9 Pro. Technically a pistol that has a Form 1 as it has a stock. On the form one, I put OAL of 29". I use an extra long buffer tube and collapsible stock to get to 29."

According to Md. Code Ann., Crim. Law §4–303(a)(2), it is illegal to "possess, sell, offer to sell, transfer, purchase, or receive an assault weapon." An "assault weapon" is defined as:

"
(1) an assault long gun;

(2) an assault pistol; or

(3) a copycat weapon."

Crim. Law §4–301(d). The items in d(1) and (2) above do not apply because, these refer to lists of specifically enumerated firearms, none of which are an APC9 Pro. In contrast, "a copy cat weapon" is broadly defined to mean in relevant part:

(i) a semiautomatic centerfire rifle that can accept a detachable magazine and has any two of the following:

1. a folding stock;

2. a grenade launcher or flare launcher; or

3. a flash suppressor;

***

(iii) a semiautomatic centerfire rifle that has an overall length of less than 29 inches;

Crim. Law §4–301(h). As noted elsewhere, centerfire rifle is not defined in Subtitle 3 dealing with Assault Weapons. So how to determine whether an APC9 Pro is a copycat weapon? It appears that the MSP advisory may be saying that 4-301(d)(iii) above, but what about d(1)? As some suggest, it should be clear because a pistol is a pistol but the operable definitions in Subtitle 2, dealing with handguns is all but clear: Looking to Crim. Law §4–201, the definitions don't seem to resolve the question:


(c)(1) “Handgun” means a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed on the person.
(2) “Handgun” includes a short-barreled shotgun and a short-barreled rifle.
(3) “Handgun” does not include a shotgun, rifle, or antique firearm.

"Pistol" does not appear to be defined elsewhere in the statute but please let me know if that is incorrect. Certainly nothing here suggests that an APC9 Pro is a pistol except that it can be concealed on the person. Indeed, that appears to be the essence of the definition.

Turning to other applicable definitions under 4-201 things seem to get more confusing, not less:

Rifle
(e) “Rifle” means a weapon that is:
(1) designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder; and
(2) designed or redesigned, and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed metallic cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.

Short-barreled rifle
(f) “Short-barreled rifle” means:
(1) a rifle that has one or more barrels less than 16 inches long; or
(2) a weapon that has an overall length of less than 26 inches and that was made from a rifle, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise.

Because a rifle can be designed or redesigned, made or remade, and it applies to a weapon rather than any specific category, it is hard to see how an SBRed APC9 Pro is excluded. a Short-barreled rifle, on the other hand has to have been made from a rifle. So if I can exclude my APC9 Pro from the rifle definition, then I can exclude it from the copycat definition.

The only demarcation I can see between pistol and rifle may one barrel and overall length. A weapon with a barrel longer than 16" or an OAL longer than 26" is clearly a rifle. But what if the barrel is less? What makes a weapon a short-barrel rifle rather than a pistol under MD law?

Currently, I have no freaking clue. Have not yet looked at all the various titles or COMAR or case law so any pointers would be appreciated. The answer to that question, however, will say whether I can put a law folder and flash suppressor or suppressor on my APC9 (still OAL >29) or go with the B&T collapsible stock (OAL < 29) and not have a copycat weapon. In my professional opinion nothing in the MSP advisory addresses the copycat issue that I can see.

 

[Mike1690]

Was the less than 29" one rimfire or centerfire?

Centerfire

 

[outrider58]

I am a lawyer and I'm confused. Have an APC9 Pro. Technically a pistol that has a Form 1 as it has a stock. On the form one, I put OAL of 29". I use an extra long buffer tube and collapsible stock to get to 29."

According to Md. Code Ann., Crim. Law §4–303(a)(2), it is illegal to "possess, sell, offer to sell, transfer, purchase, or receive an assault weapon." An "assault weapon" is defined as:

"
(1) an assault long gun;

(2) an assault pistol; or

(3) a copycat weapon."

Crim. Law §4–301(d). The items in d(1) and (2) above do not apply because, these refer to lists of specifically enumerated firearms, none of which are an APC9 Pro. In contrast, "a copy cat weapon" is broadly defined to mean in relevant part:

(i) a semiautomatic centerfire rifle that can accept a detachable magazine and has any two of the following:

1. a folding stock;

2. a grenade launcher or flare launcher; or

3. a flash suppressor;

***

(iii) a semiautomatic centerfire rifle that has an overall length of less than 29 inches;

Crim. Law §4–301(h). As noted elsewhere, centerfire rifle is not defined in Subtitle 3 dealing with Assault Weapons. So how to determine whether an APC9 Pro is a copycat weapon? It appears that the MSP advisory may be saying that 4-301(d)(iii) above, but what about d(1)? As some suggest, it should be clear because a pistol is a pistol but the operable definitions in Subtitle 2, dealing with handguns is all but clear: Looking to Crim. Law §4–201, the definitions don't seem to resolve the question:


(c)(1) “Handgun” means a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed on the person.
(2) “Handgun” includes a short-barreled shotgun and a short-barreled rifle.
(3) “Handgun” does not include a shotgun, rifle, or antique firearm.

"Pistol" does not appear to be defined elsewhere in the statute but please let me know if that is incorrect. Certainly nothing here suggests that an APC9 Pro is a pistol except that it can be concealed on the person. Indeed, that appears to be the essence of the definition.

Turning to other applicable definitions under 4-201 things seem to get more confusing, not less:

Rifle
(e) “Rifle” means a weapon that is:
(1) designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder; and
(2) designed or redesigned, and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed metallic cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.

Short-barreled rifle
(f) “Short-barreled rifle” means:
(1) a rifle that has one or more barrels less than 16 inches long; or
(2) a weapon that has an overall length of less than 26 inches and that was made from a rifle, whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise.

Because a rifle can be designed or redesigned, made or remade, and it applies to a weapon rather than any specific category, it is hard to see how an SBRed APC9 Pro is excluded. a Short-barreled rifle, on the other hand has to have been made from a rifle. So if I can exclude my APC9 Pro from the rifle definition, then I can exclude it from the copycat definition.

The only demarcation I can see between pistol and rifle may one barrel and overall length. A weapon with a barrel longer than 16" or an OAL longer than 26" is clearly a rifle. But what if the barrel is less? What makes a weapon a short-barrel rifle rather than a pistol under MD law?

Currently, I have no freaking clue. Have not yet looked at all the various titles or COMAR or case law so any pointers would be appreciated. The answer to that question, however, will say whether I can put a law folder and flash suppressor or suppressor on my APC9 (still OAL >29) or go with the B&T collapsible stock (OAL < 29) and not have a copycat weapon. In my professional opinion nothing in the MSP advisory addresses the copycat issue that I can see.

An SBR can be made from a pistol.
Pistols can not be made from rifles. Only SBRs.
Your gun is gtg as an SBR but you need the stamp before you build it.

 

[babalou]

An SBR can be made from a pistol.
Pistols can not be made from rifles. Only SBRs.
Your gun is gtg as an SBR but you need the stamp before you build it.

in the past you used to be able to put a brace on it to make it a temporary pistol until the stamp arrives then you can replace with a stock. Hmmm in MD this is still gtg since they see no difference like the FTA?

 

[Saberwalk]

An SBR can be made from a pistol.
Pistols can not be made from rifles. Only SBRs.
Your gun is gtg as an SBR but you need the stamp before you build it.

Thanks. I already have the stamp for a 29" OAL Federal SBR. It is the MD copycat issue that I am worried about.

I was thinking of either switching out that 11" buffer tube for a law folder that keeps it at a 29" OAL or going to the B&T Stock for these which has an OAL less than 26" when extended. In either case, I would have a suppressor that I want to use, but could not resolve whether or not this would be a copy cat weapon.

If I am understanding MSP (and you) correctly, not an issue, because the weapon is not a rifle even though it is intended to be fired from the shoulder and registered as a Federal SBR. So I can have a folding stock and suppressor, and/or have it less than 29" long...in MD.

 

[outrider58]

Thanks. I already have the stamp for a 29" OAL Federal SBR. It is the MD copycat issue that I am worried about.

I was thinking of either switching out that 11" buffer tube for a law folder that keeps it at a 29" OAL or going to the B&T Stock for these which has an OAL less than 26" when extended. In either case, I would have a suppressor that I want to use, but could not resolve whether or not this would be a copy cat weapon.

If I am understanding MSP (and you) correctly, not an issue, because the weapon is not a rifle even though it is intended to be fired from the shoulder and registered as a Federal SBR. So I can have a folding stock and suppressor, and/or have it less than 29" long...in MD.

Going with a LAW folder is okay because you are keeping your oal over 29". I think the B&T stock would be problematic because you would be shortening your SBR below the legal Md length. If the B&T stock were a brace, you might be able to reapply the gun as a braced pistol, but from what I'm reading, the brace would have to stay on the gun to be legal in Md as an SBR'd pistol.