MSP denials

[Preach]

MSP and the Attorney General (Frosh) consider PBJ to be a CONVICTION.

Innocent people cannot be ordered to serve a period of probation.

PBJ requires a guilty plea in most Maryland courts, or the case goes to trial and a final judgment.

That’s State policy until someone takes the question to trial in a civil lawsuit.

I have to disagree based on my personal experiences.
They do not consider it a conviction if they did lots of folks including me would not have their HQL nor would we have been able to purchase multiple regulated firearms in this State without having anything expunged.
And the final Verdict on my court paperwork says Probation before Judgement.
Final Disposition says Dismissed, this appears after probation is done.
When a plea is stricken it is stricken it no longer applies.

And yes it would be a lawsuit if I was denied W&C considering I have my HQL and have made multiple purchases without having record expunged.

And yes Honesty on the applications is the best policy.

 

[blueharford]

MSP and the Attorney General (Frosh) consider PBJ to be a CONVICTION.

Innocent people cannot be ordered to serve a period of probation.

PBJ requires a guilty plea in most Maryland courts, or the case goes to trial and a final judgment.

That’s State policy until someone takes the question to trial in a civil lawsuit.

Legally PBJ is not a conviction. It’s probation BEFORE JUDGEMENT.

If your probation is over from a pbj, file for expungement. It’s only like $20


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[swinokur]

Uh oh here comes Road Dawg


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[BurkeM]

Legally PBJ is not a conviction. It’s probation BEFORE JUDGEMENT.

If your probation is over from a pbj, file for expungement. It’s only like $20


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I'm sharing what the MSP and Attorney General consider to be a conviction. (Personally, I disagree with MSP's policy.)

People found innocent by a judge are not sentenced to Probation.

PBJ is a Sentence, and only issued by a judge after a defendant has entered a "Guilty" plea.

Maryland Criminal Procedure Article 6-220(b)(1)

When a defendant pleads guilty or nolo contendere or is found guilty of a crime, a court may stay the entering of judgment, defer further proceedings, and place the defendant on probation subject to reasonable conditions if:
(i) the court finds that the best interests of the defendant and the public welfare would be served; and
(ii) the defendant gives written consent after determination of guilt or acceptance of a nolo contendere plea.”

(2) Subject to paragraphs (3) and (4) of this subsection, the conditions may include an order that the defendant:

(i) pay a fine or monetary penalty to the State or make restitution; or

(ii) participate in a rehabilitation program, the parks program, or a voluntary hospital program.

 

[blueharford]

I'm sharing what the MSP and Attorney General consider to be a conviction. (Personally, I disagree with MSP's policy.)

People found innocent by a judge are not sentenced to Probation.

PBJ is a Sentence, and only issued by a judge after a defendant has entered a "Guilty" plea.

Maryland Criminal Procedure Article 6-220(b)(1)

When a defendant pleads guilty or nolo contendere or is found guilty of a crime, a court may stay the entering of judgment, defer further proceedings, and place the defendant on probation subject to reasonable conditions if:
(i) the court finds that the best interests of the defendant and the public welfare would be served; and
(ii) the defendant gives written consent after determination of guilt or acceptance of a nolo contendere plea.”

(2) Subject to paragraphs (3) and (4) of this subsection, the conditions may include an order that the defendant:

(i) pay a fine or monetary penalty to the State or make restitution; or

(ii) participate in a rehabilitation program, the parks program, or a voluntary hospital program.

How Does Probation Before Judgment Work in Maryland

Probation before judgment, also known as "P.B.J." in Maryland, is a disposition or outcome a person may receive in a criminal or traffic case. Probation

triallawyersmaryland.com

“Is Probation Before Judgment a Conviction in Maryland?
No, a PBJ is not a conviction in Maryland. If a defendant receives a PBJ then the guilty finding has been stricken and the defendant has not been found guilty. Therefore, a PBJ is not a conviction in Maryland.”


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[6-Pack]

Uh oh here comes Road Dawg


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And 6-Pack to disagree with Road Dawg….

 

[swinokur]

Lol yep


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[Stoveman]

Is this considered working 40-60 hours a week for MSI? Asking for a friend...

 

[BigWilly]

Your integrity will be appreciated, and not used against you if there is no court record of a prohibitive conviction.

You can’t be disapproved for an arrest that didn’t lead to a conviction, but you could be Disapproved for making a false statement if they find records that you failed to report. (Yes or no questions- “Have you EVER been arrested?”)

My issue is/was, I definitely wasn't arrested or even go to court. I possibly was charged with maybe assault for fight in high school. I remember getting expelled for 2 semesters but do not recall if any charges were brought. Baltimore County Public Schools had just gone to a zero tolerance policy so even though I didn't start the fight and was only defending myself, I got in trouble. I was the only one that was 18 and I or my parents or brother and sister can remember if I was actually charged. I searched MD case search and went the Baltimore County Court on Kelso and had the clerk search and they found nothing. Other then speeding tickets, I have nothing else possible in my background. I answered no to "have you ever been charged" because to the best of my recollection and based on my checking all available sources that was the correct answer. I feared giving a false positive would be just as bad. I have since had two 77Rs approved and now wait for 8/12s to be up. The anxiety wore me down and I'm over it. It'll be what It'll be. Hopefully at worst, I'll get a call asking what's the deal or at best, my recollection was right and I'm approved.

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[BurkeM]

My issue is/was, I definitely wasn't arrested or even go to court. I possibly was charged with maybe assault for fight in high school. I remember getting expelled for 2 semesters but do not recall if any charges were brought. Baltimore County Public Schools had just gone to a zero tolerance policy so even though I didn't start the fight and was only defending myself, I got in trouble. I was the only one that was 18 and I or my parents or brother and sister can remember if I was actually charged. I searched MD case search and went the Baltimore County Court on Kelso and had the clerk search and they found nothing. Other then speeding tickets, I have nothing else possible in my background. I answered no to "have you ever been charged" because to the best of my recollection and based on my checking all available sources that was the correct answer. I feared giving a false positive would be just as bad. I have since had two 77Rs approved and now wait for 8/12s to be up. The anxiety wore me down and I'm over it. It'll be what It'll be. Hopefully at worst, I'll get a call asking what's the deal or at best, my recollection was right and I'm approved.

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Based on your comments, it appears you were neither arrested or charged.

It's possible to be suspended or expelled without any police or court action.

 

[BurkeM]

Is this considered working 40-60 hours a week for MSI? Asking for a friend...

LOL!

 

[BurkeM]

How Does Probation Before Judgment Work in Maryland

Probation before judgment, also known as "P.B.J." in Maryland, is a disposition or outcome a person may receive in a criminal or traffic case. Probation

triallawyersmaryland.com

“Is Probation Before Judgment a Conviction in Maryland?
No, a PBJ is not a conviction in Maryland. If a defendant receives a PBJ then the guilty finding has been stricken and the defendant has not been found guilty. Therefore, a PBJ is not a conviction in Maryland.”


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Do pay attention to the TOP of my post.

It's important to know what MSP Licensing considers to be a conviction, because they act on their opinion and people get disapproved based on their opinion, when people answer "No" to the questions about arrests, charges, and convictions.

The best way to preclude a disapproval is to be HONEST on your answers on the application, and pass their self-imposed integrity test.

 

[swinokur]

If the LD is taken to court what will they say?

“It’s our opinion your honor”


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[Blaster229]

Truth is, no one has a clue what goes on in the LD, unless you've worked there.

 

[GTOGUNNER]

If the LD is taken to court what will they say?

“It’s our opinion your honor”


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And the Judge says, “of course you can do what you want MSP, you have qualified immunity. “ The only people that have to know all laws are the citizens, not the ones that enforce the laws.


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[Park ranger]

I'm sharing what the MSP and Attorney General consider to be a conviction. (Personally, I disagree with MSP's policy.)

People found innocent by a judge are not sentenced to Probation.

PBJ is a Sentence, and only issued by a judge after a defendant has entered a "Guilty" plea.

Maryland Criminal Procedure Article 6-220(b)(1)

When a defendant pleads guilty or nolo contendere or is found guilty of a crime, a court may stay the entering of judgment, defer further proceedings, and place the defendant on probation subject to reasonable conditions if:
(i) the court finds that the best interests of the defendant and the public welfare would be served; and
(ii) the defendant gives written consent after determination of guilt or acceptance of a nolo contendere plea.”

(2) Subject to paragraphs (3) and (4) of this subsection, the conditions may include an order that the defendant:

(i) pay a fine or monetary penalty to the State or make restitution; or

(ii) participate in a rehabilitation program, the parks program, or a voluntary hospital program.

Does a judge find anyone innocent?

So are you saying you could have a PBJ but not be prohibited from buying a handgun but that same PBJ could prevent you from getting you W&C permit?

 

[BigWilly]

Based on your comments, it appears you were neither arrested or charged.

It's possible to be suspended or expelled without any police or court action.

Didn't know that was even a thing. I would of thought something on your record would need action on by the individual. Appreciate your input.

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[DubleTap]

And yes it would be a lawsuit if I was denied W&C considering I have my HQL and have made multiple purchases without having record expunged.

And yes Honesty on the applications is the best policy.

And Yes, we are pretty much the same scenario. If I was to be denied I will not go quietly into the night. I already went through this period of “concern” when I did 77Rs on multiple AR lowers back during the “lovely” End of 2013 period and then my HQL application. All being subsequently approved. So we shall see!!! Will be watching for your success Preach and Good Luck!!

 

[Preach]

And Yes, we are pretty much the same scenario. If I was to be denied I will not go quietly into the night. I already went through this period of “concern” when I did 77Rs on multiple AR lowers back during the “lovely” End of 2013 period and then my HQL application. All being subsequently approved. So we shall see!!! Will be watching for your success Preach and Good Luck!!

Thanks. Good luck to you also. I am anxiously waiting.

 

[Allen65]

Im curious about something. If you have an HQL, Designated collector and have bought around 20 regulated firearms before and after 2013, would you think you would have issues with a few PBJs 1980s and 2001. ( No violence and all were misdemeanors) I have had no issues for about 20 years but this thread has me feeling a bit nervous.

I guess more simply put does the W&C check involve more scrutiny then HQL or buying a regulated FireArm?

If those charges weren't for prohibiting offenses in the first place, PBJ or not, they'd be irrelevant to purchases. W&C still has different criteria, until court says otherwise based on Bruen. Based on the bits and pieces I'm hearing about the current process, references don't get called unless something pops hot during the records check. That implies there's still a defacto "good character" standard being used for W&C that might affect your adjudication for a permit.