Where are their numbers from? Crime Prevention Resource Center is good for facts. They likely have suicide numbers in their figures, which as we all know, skew the numbers. Suicide is suicide. Doesn't matter the tool or method.
Need facts rebutting my church
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Where are their numbers from? Crime Prevention Resource Center is good for facts. They likely have suicide numbers in their figures, which as we all know, skew the numbers. Suicide is suicide. Doesn't matter the tool or method.
$75/person to attend, listen to liberal, p*ssified info THEN screen the docudrama "Newtown"? I would rather go get my prostate checked by Shaquille O'Neal.
K.C.Dean
Ultimate Member
Jesus talks about the 7 churches in Revelation and IMO it represents the Churches we see today. All but one the church of Philadelphia had faults. My question, why should we stay at a church that is clearly not teaching sound christian doctrine? Should I follow blindly and except what I am being told or do I trust in what the lord shows me as I study? There is too much politics in the church today and there is fault in every church I've attended. I will not allow no man to deceive me and I put my trust in the Lord.
The bible is pretty clear about certain things i will use one to make a point IE women should remain silent in churches. 1 Corinthians is very clear about that. When I've questioned leaders at churches that allow this I am told ," well, back then women weren't allowed but things are different today". Now churches are choosing what is allowed based on a change in society. The Bible can't be changed to accommodate their congregation. This has been done to maintain enough people to supply enough money to keep the doors open to a building. The end does not justify the means period. This is why so many people will be deceived.
I have been to just about every church/denomination and some that claim not to be associated to one and I have witnessed many teachings that are not sound doctrine. I will end with this and it will cause some heads to spin. Tithing was not taught by Jesus. He ridicules the scribes and the pharisees for tithing mint,anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice mercy and faith. Paul only talked about people giving on the first day of the week and that it would be taken to Jerusalem. I know someone is going to post the quote about Jesus not coming to change the Law but to fulfill it. If you are talking about the laws in the old Testament, there were around 600 laws. If you are talking the 10 commandments well Tithing is not one of them. Tithing is part of 600 laws that no Christians follow. Are we supposed to give absolutely but not 10% and not necessarily to the church.
VG-10
Active Member
Agreed. Matthew 26:39 shows Him asking God The Father:
He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.”
Then He goes on to say: "nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.”
As many have pointed out, the Bible is full of examples of self-defense that were considered righteous. But if you go into a fight that God can't sign off on, then you do it TRULY on your own.
Not all churches are like that. I will be going shooting this coming weekend at MD Small Arms with a couple of the sitting board members of our church (It's a non-denominational church that preaches the Bible) and a few members. Should be a good time. Anybody that happens to be there on Sat the 22nd, take a second to say hello. I'll be the fat guy with the longest beard in the building
- Nov 14, 2010
- 20,274
Agreed. Matthew 26:39 shows Him asking God The Father:
He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.”
Then He goes on to say: "nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.”
As many have pointed out, the Bible is full of examples of self-defense that were considered righteous. But if you go into a fight that God can't sign off on, then you do it TRULY on your own.
Not all churches are like that. I will be going shooting this coming weekend at MD Small Arms with a couple of the sitting board members of our church (It's a non-denominational church that preaches the Bible) and a few members. Should be a good time. Anybody that happens to be there on Sat the 22nd, take a second to say hello. I'll be the fat guy with the longest beard in the building
Good stuff, I shoot regularly with our pastor and a couple of the deacons.
Which church?
Biggfoot44
Ultimate Member
- Aug 2, 2009
- 33,350
You misunderstand the purpose of the upcoming "meeting" . Its not to seek your input. It is to Tell you the already existing doctrines.
FIFY
DanGuy48
Ultimate Member
http://crimeresearch.org
http://jpfo.org/filegen-a-m2/gun-murder-
I also like using this one below (PDFs for download are available on line, 110 pages) because it was was of the studies requested by the Obama administration which ended up not being completely in agreement with his agenda, hence why so few have heard of it.
"Priorities for Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence"
(Search by the title)
http://jpfo.org/filegen-a-m2/gun-murder-
I also like using this one below (PDFs for download are available on line, 110 pages) because it was was of the studies requested by the Obama administration which ended up not being completely in agreement with his agenda, hence why so few have heard of it.
"Priorities for Research to Reduce the Threat of Firearm-Related Violence"
(Search by the title)
T-Man
Ultimate Member
Yes, there is fault in every church, churches are made up of men and men fail. The old expression is if you find a church that is perfect, don't go to it as you will ruin it. There is a difference though between teaching false doctrine and preferences or opinions on things that are open for differing opinions. Jesus words to each of the churches in Revelation are different depending upon what is going on in each.
So I can never fellowship with someone who does not believe that Jesus died on the cross but I can with someone who is a pacifist. I may not attend a church that teaches that pacifism is the way to go, but if they are still teaching the Bible then they are still brothers in Christ.
And yes, if the church is not teaching sound doctrine, you should run like the wind out of there as it is corrupting. The Bible is overflowing with examples of warnings about false teachers and that they would be more of them as we get towards the end.
Preferences and opinions also may cause people to leave a church and that is ok as well, a church does not own anyone only Jesus died for you, but that is a personal decision. I would not go to a traditional gospel music singing only church if I had another option as it is not my preference, but other people may love it and that is ok. But we are still told to not forsake fellowship and the structure is still set out in the Bible.
Agreed, though sometimes out of good motives too -- People see that a certain doctrine is putting off people so they start to not mention it...soon it is just avoided and then changed. It is wrong and does not understand the fact that the world is supposed to think the Cross is foolishness per 1 Corinthians, but it is not always about money.
[/QUOTE]
Tithing in the sense of 10%, yes, that was directed to Israel only and the actual amount of offerings set out under the Law was something like 30% and it was mainly to support the Temple and Levites and was done in offerings - so if you want to follow the OT version than prepare to up your tithe and good luck finding a Temple to sacrifice in.
But Jesus does not ridicule the pharisees because they are giving, in Mark 12 He makes the point to call together the disciples and points out the widow who gives her two mites as an example of faith, He is rebuking them because they are hypocrites -- they tithe down to the smallest amounts but are liars, thieves and don't follow God so their tithes are empty and worthless - a very familiar occurrence today. Jesus continues that section by saying:
"These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone."
His point is about their lack of other other things not the tithing.
But as New Testament believers we are not under the Law regardless. Giving, not tithing is covered a number of times in the NT, particularly by Paul when he talks about support of the churches - it is right to support the church and Paul makes it clear that a worker for the church should be supported by the church. He also lays out our standard in 2 Corinthians for giving:
But this I say: He who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. 7 So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver.
God does not need our money - it belongs to Him to begin with and He is not desperate for everyone to give 10% of their income -- if they are not giving out of joy and gratitude for what Jesus already did they should save it as it is worthless to God - giving out of duty or obligation only is a waste of time. God mentions it often not because He needs it, but because it is good for us.
Some people should give more than 10%, some should give less, some should support only their church, some only the elderly widow down the street - but everyone should give.
We don't take an offering at our church, we don't keep track of who gives what (an accountant does for tax purposes, but I don't see it and don't ask) and don't teach on it unless it comes up in the book of the Bible that we are going through. The way that people get beaten up and manipulated over tithing/giving also makes me sad but God does say to give a He directs and do so with joy. Jesus wants all of us to follow with Him with everything we have and that includes anything financial He has given us to take care of.
Another example, a pastor out in one of the rougher neighborhoods in LA was starting a church and saw what false shepherds had done to the people of the neighborhood over money - just beaten and robbed them blind -- so he decided to never take and offering or ask for support from the people. 30 years later that church is still chugging along with thousands of people going every week. God is the one who provides or doesn't.
K.C.Dean
Ultimate Member
Tithing in the sense of 10%, yes, that was directed to Israel only and the actual amount of offerings set out under the Law was something like 30% and it was mainly to support the Temple and Levites and was done in offerings - so if you want to follow the OT version than prepare to up your tithe and good luck finding a Temple to sacrifice in.
But Jesus does not ridicule the pharisees because they are giving, in Mark 12 He makes the point to call together the disciples and points out the widow who gives her two mites as an example of faith, He is rebuking them because they are hypocrites -- they tithe down to the smallest amounts but are liars, thieves and don't follow God so their tithes are empty and worthless - a very familiar occurrence today. Jesus continues that section by saying:
"These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone."
His point is about their lack of other other things not the tithing.
But as New Testament believers we are not under the Law regardless. Giving, not tithing is covered a number of times in the NT, particularly by Paul when he talks about support of the churches - it is right to support the church and Paul makes it clear that a worker for the church should be supported by the church. He also lays out our standard in 2 Corinthians for giving:
But this I say: He who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. 7 So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver.
God does not need our money - it belongs to Him to begin with and He is not desperate for everyone to give 10% of their income -- if they are not giving out of joy and gratitude for what Jesus already did they should save it as it is worthless to God - giving out of duty or obligation only is a waste of time. God mentions it often not because He needs it, but because it is good for us.
Some people should give more than 10%, some should give less, some should support only their church, some only the elderly widow down the street - but everyone should give.
We don't take an offering at our church, we don't keep track of who gives what (an accountant does for tax purposes, but I don't see it and don't ask) and don't teach on it unless it comes up in the book of the Bible that we are going through. The way that people get beaten up and manipulated over tithing/giving also makes me sad but God does say to give a He directs and do so with joy. Jesus wants all of us to follow with Him with everything we have and that includes anything financial He has given us to take care of.
Another example, a pastor out in one of the rougher neighborhoods in LA was starting a church and saw what false shepherds had done to the people of the neighborhood over money - just beaten and robbed them blind -- so he decided to never take and offering or ask for support from the people. 30 years later that church is still chugging along with thousands of people going every week. God is the one who provides or doesn't.[/QUOTE]
Thank you T man for your reply. It is obvious you are well versed in Bible doctrine and I can see in your words that you are sincere and honest. Your service to the Lord is greatly appreciated and based and what you post here and on your blog shows me you are a true man of God! God Bless you!
Hondo
Active Member
My two cents: Respectfully, if you are having conflict of pro-gun vs. anti-gun with your church, perhaps you should look into a new church. I think it is very important to have a church; however, it should be one that is focused on pursuing a life with Jesus and sharing the Gospel, rather than one who’s focus is on politics, the legalities of owning a firearm or any one of a hundred issues that distract from God’s Word. Perhaps there is a certain feeling of loyalty to this particular church but remember, as Christians our relationship should be with Christ, not a church.
If you decide to go to this "Faith & Guns Forum", I would read up on FBI crime statistics, make lots of notes and bring them with you.
If you decide to go to this "Faith & Guns Forum", I would read up on FBI crime statistics, make lots of notes and bring them with you.
Wow, two of our Pastor's have CCW and our Senior Pastor often mentions the need for all to vote and to consider which one will protect the Constitution and 2A. Sunday he said that we have a choice of Nebuchadnezzar or Jezebel and something along the line of God could work with Nebuchadnezzar but Jezebel ended up eaten by wild dogs.
T-Man
Ultimate Member
Thanks KC - right back at you my friend.
Good points Hondo. Though we stayed at our old church for quite some time after realizing the problems in order to try to right the ship and get folks back focusing on Jesus. Only after it became clear that they had no intention of doing so did we bug out. The Methodists of John Wesley were once a great light in the world, with some work and a whole lot of Jesus they could be again.
VG-10
Active Member
Unfortunately, I think that if you weren't there to read it, it would probably find its way into the "circular file". I could be 100% wrong about this tho.
VG-10
Active Member
Micah 4:3
Just clicked on the church event link. Somebody more knowledgable than me, please correct me if I'm wrong. Isn't Micah 4:3 talking about Heaven?
Whomever wrote the part that mentioned Micah 4:3 seemed to be comparing Heaven and the world. Or at least insinuating that one could be like the other.
That seems like comparing Apples to extention cords. I don't know, just a thought.
Just clicked on the church event link. Somebody more knowledgable than me, please correct me if I'm wrong. Isn't Micah 4:3 talking about Heaven?
Whomever wrote the part that mentioned Micah 4:3 seemed to be comparing Heaven and the world. Or at least insinuating that one could be like the other.
That seems like comparing Apples to extention cords. I don't know, just a thought.
T-Man
Ultimate Member
Yeah, it is often quoted incorrectly but Micah 4:3 is talking about after the 2nd Comimg of Jesus during the Millennial Kimgdom. Jesus is ruling the earth personaly perfectly.
No need for swords then as it is Jesus Himself on the throne.
Until then, not so much.
hillbilly grandpa
Active Member
It's a stacked and controlled event. Your likelihood of having an impact on this event is about zero--unless you can assemble a group of UMCs who share your views. With that constituency you can and should go after the DS and your area bishop. Your focus and aim is that "we UMCs value open discussion and debate, and the integrity of facts." Demand a restructuring of the event to include multiple panels/debates exploring multiple aspects of the whole range of issues. The focus is not on your disagreement with the slnt of the program. It is on the fact that there is no integrity to their approach because forecloses any exploration of anything other than a single point of view.
This approach is contrary to the mandate of the Board of Church and Society. Make them defend their approach and planning. They can't defend that. The key will be in mobilizing fellow Methodists to challenge your deniminational beaurocracy. You have leverage in this approach that you lack on November 14-16.
By the way, I'm a retired Elder.
This approach is contrary to the mandate of the Board of Church and Society. Make them defend their approach and planning. They can't defend that. The key will be in mobilizing fellow Methodists to challenge your deniminational beaurocracy. You have leverage in this approach that you lack on November 14-16.
By the way, I'm a retired Elder.
- Dec 27, 2012
- 30,230
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