new AR round

[booker]

Since it is an Archipelago that is surrounded by water. The Bad guys get most of their Armaments from the Philippine Military in an " Agaw Armas" program ( Steal one's arm). Going with a wildcat round will make it more difficult for the hostiles to use captured arms against the population and the government. Controlling the source of ammo is a good way of slowing down the rebels. A lot of military and police are killed so that their weapons can be stolen and used for many criminal activities.

How long do you think that advantage will last?

I foresee a quickly emerging black market for the wildcat round, and potentially a high price for stolen/pilfered ammunition. It wouldn't be much for one corrupt (or planted) shipping/security agent to divert a few pallets of the wildcat ammo into the wrong hands.

And think of it from this angle; several stolen dies for printing US currency made it into the middle east where several tens and potentially hundreds of millions of US dollars were printed on likewise pilfered authentic paper and using high-quality knockoff inks. If people are going to that extent to counterfeit US currency, the obstacle of wildcat ammunition is, in my humble opinion, a walk in the park.

Then again, I could be wrong as I do not know the conditions on the ground. I am just pessimistic about the likelihood of the desired outcome, given the information provided.

 

[SCARCQB]

I do know the conditions on the ground. I was there back in August. Small arms ammunition is basically Military calibers. The 5.56x45 is the most used. The AK( 7.62x39) round, despite of it being available in many places in the world is scarce in the Philippines. The 7.62x54R or 5.45.. is almost impossible to get.

I am certain that some crafty folks can start making this ammo at some bamboo hut in the jungle somewhere. But not in quantities that can make a significant impact for several years.(Fireformed cases from 5.56)

They should take it further and make the casing out of aluminum or steel to prevent them from being reloaded ( also berdan primed).

 

[booker]

It'll be interesting to track this story as it develops, I hope there is a follow-up report on the effects and outcomes.

 

[swinokur]

I'd be more interested if SAAMI recognizes it.

 

[Forest]

They should take it further and make the casing out of aluminum or steel to prevent them from being reloaded ( also berdan primed).

Aluminum might work.

Steel is reloadable, and with some Epoxy you can reload beriden primed cases with boxer primers.

Dave Fortier did some testing of it over on AR15.com. It worked for several reloads of the same case providing you're not pushing for a max load. He was testing the possibility of reloading steel 7.62x39 cases for 6.5 Grendel.

 

[booker]

So if the criminals are willing to kill law enforcement to get their guns (as stated in the article, the impetus for creating the new cartridge)... what is to stop them from doing the same to get their ammunition, regardless of the caliber?

While I certainly hope this works out for them, the unfortunate reality is very likely that there will be increased violence as law enforcement officers and military are targeted to capture the new guns and ammunition. Ammunition production, transport and storage will require additional security, putting further strain on the system and the individual officers.

 

[Dogabutila]

Based off the same case, it will fit the mag, chamber and also fire.

Sure it may not be as accurate, with the .224 projectile having too much space in the barrel, but a "bad bad"?

Ever shoot a 5.56 in a 6.8 barrel? It shoots
Ever shoot a 5.56 in a 300 BLK barrel? It shoots

Not a bad, bad. whatever that is.

Now, go ahead and shoot that 300 BLK down a 5.56 barrel. That is my definition of "bad."

Maybe the guy that wrote the article is just bad at math. Then again, maybe I am.

You just aren't good at reading.

In fact, if an insurgent chambers a readily available 5.56mm round into a captured Musang rifle, he could be in for quite a bad bad.

 

[SCARCQB]

So if the criminals are willing to kill law enforcement to get their guns (as stated in the article, the impetus for creating the new cartridge)... what is to stop them from doing the same to get their ammunition, regardless of the caliber?

While I certainly hope this works out for them, the unfortunate reality is very likely that there will be increased violence as law enforcement officers and military are targeted to capture the new guns and ammunition. Ammunition production, transport and storage will require additional security, putting further strain on the system and the individual officers.

That's nothing new. The violence is already there( It is isolated in mostly remote areas and the Muslim South- Mindanao or Bangsamorro). The folks there can keep doing the same stuff and expect different results or try something different.


The Chinese ( PLA) has taken a similar stance with the adoption of the The 5.8×42mm / DBP87 round as a standard rifle cartridge for the PLA. The newer QBZ-95 bullpups being issued are in this caliber. Proprietary to the PLA. Export models of the QBZ-95 are in 5.56x45mm

 

[r3t1awr3yd]

You just aren't good at reading.

Or you aren't.

I'm with AR-15fan on this one after reading that paragraph a bunch of times lol.

In fact, if an insurgent chambers a readily available 5.56mm round into a captured Musang rifle, he could be in for quite a bad bad.

A smaller than .30 caliber round being fired in a .30 caliber barrel... what's the issue (again, besides accuracy).

 

[SCARCQB]

A smaller than .30 caliber round being fired in a .30 caliber barrel... what's the issue (again, besides accuracy).

It will not cycle. The M16 becomes a musket

 

[r3t1awr3yd]

A smaller than .30 caliber round being fired in a .30 caliber barrel... what's the issue (again, besides accuracy).

It will not cycle. The M16 becomes a musket

But it'll fire once and that's enough to hurt someone. I like your logic and ability to read!

 

[SCARCQB]

But it'll fire once and that's enough to hurt someone. I like your logic and ability to read!

That is the whole point

I like the odds when the badguys have a single shot, cant hit the broadside of a barn assault rifle. No magdumps for you akhmed. LOL Be a man a just do a bayonet charge.

 

[BLACKTALON]

Filipino by birth, but American by Choice

 

[huesmann]

Filipino by birth, but American by Choice

Coolio. My mom is Filipino (dad's a Yank).

 

[aquaman]

That is the whole point

I like the odds when the badguys have a single shot, cant hit the broadside of a barn assault rifle. No magdumps for you akhmed. LOL Be a man a just do a bayonet charge.

Looks like Akhmed cut a deal. Maybe the new calibre wont be used as much eh?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/15/philippines-peace-deal_n_1966029.html

Off topic kinda but what does this mean, you have first hand experience with these people as a former LEO

 

[huesmann]

Because nobody ever broke a truce before...

 

[Maverick0313]

Because nobody ever broke a truce before...

 

[jaygibson]

The Armed Forces Of The Philippines has been engaged in many low intensity conflicts internally. They are dealing with everything from private Armies, The Communist in the North, The Muslim separatist in the south , common criminals and Add Al Qaeda or Abu Sayyaf everywhere else.

Since it is an Archipelago that is surrounded by water. The Bad guys get most of their Armaments from the Philippine Military in an " Agaw Armas" program ( Steal one's arm). Going with a wildcat round will make it more difficult for the hostiles to use captured arms against the population and the government. Controlling the source of ammo is a good way of slowing down the rebels. A lot of military and police are killed so that their weapons can be stolen and used for many criminal activities.

The 5.56. 308, 30-06 and 7.62x39 are easy to obtain. A wildcat round will render the captured rifle useless to the enemy.

How do I know? I used to be a member of the Philippine Constabulary

Not a surprising concept coming the folks who basically invented the idea of "de-fanging the snake".

 

[mikec]

Moro Islamic Liberation Front (MILF)

Not the MILF most of us want to check out....

In all seriousness, I hope the truce works out. Sounds like a beautiful place.

 

[SCARCQB]

Looks like Akhmed cut a deal. Maybe the new calibre wont be used as much eh?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/15/philippines-peace-deal_n_1966029.html

Off topic kinda but what does this mean, you have first hand experience with these people as a former LEO

At a young age, I signed up for ROTC then ended up in the PC( Philippine Constabulary). I was recruited straight from College and did some HUMINT work / infiltrated various anti- government factions, mainly the NPA ( Maoist- New People's Army) and Student based Islamic radical groups. The PC evolved from from the Philippine Army Scouts, the US Army's equivalent to the Gurkha s. It eventually became the PC- INP ( integrated national Police) then just the National Police ( Yup-- the military part died with political correctness)

The Philippine constabulary has a long history and has close ties with the US Army. The Philippines was a US commonwealth ( territory) up until 1946 when the US granted it independence. Since then, The PC has been involved in all kinds of counter- insurgency missions to contain the spread of communism and Islamic expansionism is SE Asia.

Working with US and Philippine Army advisers. It was also instrumental in the formation/ training of the CHDF or Civilian Home Defense forces. This used the Hamlet type enclaves ( Vietnam) and provided arms/ training to the indigenous population. This was very effective in containing various threats in the rural areas.

I ended up in the US in the early 80's when it became too dangerous to stay there.( I could not go back for about 20 years) I became a Naturalized US Citizen, finished college and enlisted in the US Army. Served in an MI Battalion, continued on as an officer with the MDARNG. Served in a couple of deployments and got out a year ago.

Right now.. I only do Medical missions. No more firearms for offensive purposes. I'm doing Medical Missions right now on a regular basis in many 3rd world nations. I may visit the Philippines again in a couple of months.

It is a beautiful country that is affected with extreme poverty in some areas. The Insurgency, Muslim separatist, Al- Qaeda/ Abu Sayyaf, MNLF/MILF, NPA have turned it into a charlie foxtrot.

If I had one wish.. I would wish that the place stayed as a US territory and things would have been different.