NFA challenged United States v Hoover

[Blacksmith101]

The Wisconsin gun dealer who was indicted for selling key cards is challenging the nfa as unconstitutional. The guy had a YouTube channel as well which probably played into his indictment somehow. His lawyers are referencing the bruin ruling as the standard this should be judged by. I don't know anything about the background of the charges but it will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Supreme Court gun ruling cited in bid to dismiss machine-gun indictment in Clay County case

Defense lawyers are asking a federal judge in Jacksonville to rule the National Firearms Act, which regulates machine guns, is unconstitutional.

www.jacksonville.com

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Here is the thread that will give you the back story:

Keycard Auto Sear

I looked but I couldn't find an existing thread for this. Are you guys following the case of Kristopher Ervin? This guy was arrested for selling a sketch of an auto sear printed on an aluminum card. He's been held without bail for *months*. I sort of got up to speed on the case yesterday...

www.mdshooters.com

And this has a picture of the "Machine Gun" as defined by the ATF:

AutoKeyCard Explained: Why Did the ATF Shut It Down?

We explain what an AutoKeyCard is, why the ATF takes issue with it, and what legal defenses its creator might mount against the Feds.

www.pewpewtactical.com

 

[DaemonAssassin]

While I agree that going after NFA/GCA with shoddy arguments will reduce the chances we get a favorable outcome, I disagree that you must take a piecemeal approach. NFA/GCA/FOPA have all been unconstitutional since the instant of their passing into law. This means decades of deprivation of constitutional rights. SCOTUS even recognized this in Miller (1939) which was decided on the notion that sawed-off shotguns have no valid application in an active combat/warzone situation, and therefore are not at the core of the Second Amendment.

What Bruen (2021) does is expand it further to say that - core or not - the Second Amendment is a critical piece of our constitutional republic and therefore any implication of the right protected in 2A must be truly extraordinary and grounded in the nation's history. As Miller (1939) effectively admits, certain firearms are even more intrinsically linked to the core reasoning behind the 2A and those are precisely the firearms heavily restricted/banned under NFA/GCA/FOPA.

Toss out the registry, toss out the tax stamps (cannot tax constitutional rights per Virginia State Board of Elections, 383 U.S. 663 (1966)), toss out registration, and toss out all the rest of it. We've spent a century ceding ground in every single case where gun rights were in question. This is our time now. Annihilate NFA/GCA/FOPA while we have the chance. Alan Gura should be the one arguing all these cases before the SCOTUS and we should be making him a millionaire 100 times over for his troubles.

US v Miller (1936) is what you are referring to, not 1939.

In Miller, SCOTUS held that because a SBS is not in common use by the US military, it is not a protected class of arms under the 2A. But at the time, a SBS and SBR were not in the general issue inventory.

It wasn't until around 1940 that SBR's, and SBS's were actively issued to GI's in combat zones. The M3 "Grease Gun" comes to mind as a SBR that was in widespread circulation.

US v Miller (1936) carries a lot of implications and can also be insanely helpful, if we want to get rid of NFA 1934.

 

[pcfixer]

Government response: https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.flmd.398039/gov.uscourts.flmd.398039.103.0.pdf

United States v. Ervin, 3:21-cr-00022 - CourtListener.com

Docket for United States v. Ervin, 3:21-cr-00022 — Brought to you by Free Law Project, a non-profit dedicated to creating high quality open legal information.

www.courtlistener.com

Finally, Hoover’s contention that the Supreme Court’s holding in Bruen suggests that the statutes at issue violate the Second Amendment is unsupported by the relevant authority. Accordingly, the Motions are due to be denied. In light of the foregoing, it is ORDERED:
Defendant Matthew Raymond Hoover’s Motion to Dismiss (Doc. 132) and Motion to Dismiss for First and Second Amendment Violations & To Declare Unconstitutional the National Firearms Act of 1934 (Doc. 133) are DENIED. DONE AND ORDERED in Jacksonville, Florida, this 18th day of October, 2022



Most likely to be Appealed. ??

 

[Bertfish]

I'm sure they'll appeal. All hope is not yet lost

 

[Bertfish]

Real quickly browsed it

Judge says since Heller all of the courts have ruled against machine guns being covered by 2A. Using what standard? The old 2A two step or the new and valid THT test?

 

[trickg]

Real quickly browsed it

Judge says since Heller all of the courts have ruled against machine guns being covered by 2A. Using what standard? The old 2A two step or the new and valid THT test?

How many cases since Heller have involved machine guns? Can't be too many, if any.

 

[Bertfish]

How many cases since Heller have involved machine guns? Can't be too many, if any.

Screenshot of that page

To the layman this judge seems to treat these other cases mentioned here as the 2A tradition, see the bottom of the screenshot page. Which would fly in the face of Bruen. Or I could be totally off base.

 

[Fox123]

Screenshot of that page

To the layman this judge seems to treat these other cases mentioned here as the 2A tradition, see the bottom of the screenshot page. Which would fly in the face of Bruen. Or I could be totally off base.
View attachment 384604

It’s the new tradition, they just started it.

 

[pcfixer]

DAH. machine guns and NFA items still are covered by 2A. Just is one needs to apply for tax stamp for $200.
application is made with the ATF on either an ATF Form 1 or an ATF Form 4.

Question really is Does the ATF have authority to do forms? Or is ATF forms really Constitutional under Bruen?

 

[Bob A]

It might be too early to challenge the NFA at this point. Free access to machine guns would be hard to swallow for the general population, and especially the legislators. (SBRs and SBSs are not as dramatic a mouthfu; to choke down, though the "sawed-off shotgun" thing can be played for its emotional content).

They need to be ground down for a while as all the less flamboyant 2A cases smooth the way through the opposition.

I'd rather an incremental approach, than having to overcome early losses. Judges are slow to grasp the "cutting edge" decisions; they like having someone else take the heat, so they can fall back on precedent.

 

[Bertfish]

They need to get the Hughes Amendment first

 

[FFBWMD]

They need to get the Hughes Amendment first

THIS^^^

 

[Bertfish]

Hughes is the only reason they aren't in common use. Prove an analogous law to Hughes. If they win that it's much easier to strike down the whole thing as interfering with "commonly used" arms

I'm no lawyer but this seems easy. Maybe a month or two. One or two plaintiffs. Done in no time

 

[safegunners]

Real quickly browsed it

Judge says since Heller all of the courts have ruled against machine guns being covered by 2A. Using what standard? The old 2A two step or the new and valid THT test?

I would think there are many cases where they used the old two step method.

I cant see how the NFA can remain in effect when considering the Bruen decision.

 

[Allen65]

Finally, Hoover’s contention that the Supreme Court’s holding in Bruen suggests that the statutes at issue violate the Second Amendment is unsupported by the relevant authority. Accordingly, the Motions are due to be denied. In light of the foregoing, it is ORDERED:
Defendant Matthew Raymond Hoover’s Motion to Dismiss (Doc. 132) and Motion to Dismiss for First and Second Amendment Violations & To Declare Unconstitutional the National Firearms Act of 1934 (Doc. 133) are DENIED. DONE AND ORDERED in Jacksonville, Florida, this 18th day of October, 2022



Most likely to be Appealed. ??

AFAIK, this was just a response to a motion to dismiss. The full case hasn't even been heard yet.

 

[Crazytrain]

It might be too early to challenge the NFA at this point. Free access to machine guns would be hard to swallow for the general population, and especially the legislators. (SBRs and SBSs are not as dramatic a mouthfu; to choke down, though the "sawed-off shotgun" thing can be played for its emotional content).

They need to be ground down for a while as all the less flamboyant 2A cases smooth the way through the opposition.

I'd rather an incremental approach, than having to overcome early losses. Judges are slow to grasp the "cutting edge" decisions; they like having someone else take the heat, so they can fall back on precedent.

Don't forget...this isn't just a case challenging the NFA. The challenge to the NFA is a defense in a criminal case that would likely put Hoover behind bars for a long time. Hoover and his team didn't choose the time. The ATF did.

 

[wpage]

Lawyers and legislators (who are 99% lawyers) laugh up thier sleeves at the job security they create in the "gun control" scam. For thier buddies from law school and to please the ignorant constituent base. We have endless challenges such as this. Bank on other endless laws and paydays for lawyers playing the "gun control" gambit.

 

[pcfixer]

AFAIK, this was just a response to a motion to dismiss. The full case hasn't even been heard yet.

Yes, I think you're correct.

 

[Bob A]

Don't forget...this isn't just a case challenging the NFA. The challenge to the NFA is a defense in a criminal case that would likely put Hoover behind bars for a long time. Hoover and his team didn't choose the time. The ATF did.

Point taken.

 

[Dave.B]

Good plan.

Has anyone else ever noticed that IANAL is also I ANAL?

Don’t know why I noticed it, but now I can’t unsee it.

The new Apple iAnal Proctoscope