Question on Carry Positions

[Brychan]

Ok, first off Happy Halloween

Second and the topic of this thread. Something has been bugging me since I took my wear and carry class, I just can't seem to make sense of this opinion on carry position.

The instructor included a portion of training on drawing from the holster and the training made you certified to holster draw at the Guntry.

He stated that both shoulder holster and cross draw were inherently unsafe and would not be discussed. For the life of me I just don't understand get that.

I've never tried cross draw, mostly because of my belly, but have used a shoulder holster and can draw without sweeping my body parts or anyone standing next to me.

Now the part that I can't wrap my head around is he was a big proponent of appendix carry. So in using a shoulder holster you may sweep your arm, but appendix carry you will sweep your junk or femoral artery. The way I see it if you have a AD or ND in your pants even if you miss both your junk and artery you will still roast your chestnuts.

Anyone have any insight of what I'm missing or why I'm wrong?

 

[Darkemp]

Ok, first off Happy Halloween

Second and the topic of this thread. Something has been bugging me since I took my wear and carry class, I just can't seem to make sense of this opinion on carry position.

The instructor included a portion of training on drawing from the holster and the training made you certified to holster draw at the Guntry.

He stated that both shoulder holster and cross draw were inherently unsafe and would not be discussed. For the life of me I just don't understand get that.

I've never tried cross draw, mostly because of my belly, but have used a shoulder holster and can draw without sweeping my body parts or anyone standing next to me.

Now the part that I can't wrap my head around is he was a big proponent of appendix carry. So in using a shoulder holster you may sweep your arm, but appendix carry you will sweep your junk or femoral artery. The way I see it if you have a AD or ND in your pants even if you miss both your junk and artery you will still roast your chestnuts.

Anyone have any insight of what I'm missing or why I'm wrong?

Any carry method can be dangerous if you pull the trigger while drawing and by the same reasoning can be safe if you don’t.

 

[wpage]

Here are a few...

15 Of The Best Ways to Conceal Carry | ConcealedCarryLand

Everyone has a favorite technique to conceal carry a gun. Whether it’s a favorite shoulder holster, inside or outside the waist concealed carry holster, or an ankle joint holster– one size definitely doesn’t fit all. This got me thinking, what is the best way to conceal carry? The best way to...

concealedcarryland.com

 

[Boats]

Seems like more false instructor bias.

Using a firearm in any way can be dangerous if you don't follow the four rules.

That said, I don't see any reason why a shoulder holster is any more or less "dangerous" than any other type of carry. The dangerous part is the operators amount of ability or training, or lack thereof.

 

[Art3]

I think the key to this is the range certification. Most ranges do not allow cross draw or shoulder holsters because they break the 180 rule. You may not sweep yourself, but you do muzzle every other shooter on the line to your left.

At the range, you probably aren't sitting down, so careful draw from appendix should miss your legs.

 

[crtjebstuart]

ive worn a cross drawn shoulder rig 100's of times with no issues. currently i carry a glock with a glock clip within my pants, not chambered. yea i have to chamber a round, but how hard is that. simple, not bulky.

 

[Park ranger]

ive worn a cross drawn shoulder rig 100's of times with no issues. currently i carry a glock with a glock clip within my pants, not chambered. yea i have to chamber a round, but how hard is that. simple, not bulky.

Prepare to get flamed

 

[Art3]

Prepare to get flamed

At least there won't be a round in the chamber to cook off

 

[hogarth]

If only someone we know wrote an article about some of this.

Oh, wait!

Cross-Draw for the Win!…..or Not.

I’ve recently seen a number of posts and arguments on the gun forums advocating for cross-draw as a means of effective self-defense carry. Some of these same people poo-poo appendix carry (AIWB, s…

civiliangunfighter.wordpress.com

Wrote that one quite some time ago. It encompasses most, but not all, of my thoughts on this.

I do believe that shoulder/cross-draw holsters can be quite useful if you spend an inordinate amount of time seated/driving, if you wear a suit all day, etc.

 

[Biggfoot44]

Translation = Cross Draw and Shoulder Holster are Not permitted at the particular facility We are now standing . (Nor most indoor or square ranges )

If you do things. * just right * , there could be ways to use such safely here , but it's confusing to explain , and PIA to teach and monitor, and we keep it simple instead .

 

[Mr. Ed]

I think the key to this is the range certification. Most ranges do not allow cross draw or shoulder holsters because they break the 180 rule. You may not sweep yourself, but you do muzzle every other shooter on the line to your left.

At the range, you probably aren't sitting down, so careful draw from appendix should miss your legs.

I think this is the most likely reason. Considering the number of 'less experienced' folks at public ranges, it makes some sense to err on the side of caution. I also prefer shoulder rigs for lots of reasons, and am willing to accept the potentially slight delay in presentation. I'm also aware of the concerns of other folks who might be behind me. I damn sure wouldn't want a bunch of folks on a groupon drawing from shoulder rigs with no supervision.

With practice and focussed intention, most carry methods work. And with carelessness they all have the potential for disaster.

 

[Brychan]

Translation = Cross Draw and Shoulder Holster are Not permitted at the particular facility We are now standing . (Nor most indoor or square ranges )

If you do things. * just right * , there could be ways to use such safely here , but it's confusing to explain , and PIA to teach and monitor, and we keep it simple instead .

Yeah, but thing is you got 16 hours to fill, and the whole point of the class is teach wear and carry outside of the facility. Which btw does not allow you to carry inside the facility. The holster work in the classroom was done either with practice pistols, or your own pistol once it was cleared by the instructor. IMHO it would be better training time spent to cover more options than appendix to 3 o'clock, and I guess for the sinister handed appendix to 9 o'clock.

 

[Blaster229]

Carry any way you want, chambered.

 

[Biggfoot44]

Carry any way you want, chambered.

Illiustrating a Fundimental division of context : Best ( most safest ) practices on a group training range vs out & about in the real world where * carrying * is all day every day , and drawing/ shooting is a rare event , in face of the danger from a threat is greater magnitude than the small ( but admittedly greater than zero ) risk of a fumbled draw .

 

[erwos]

Your average new shooter is not up to using shoulder holsters and cross-draw safely. I don't blame the instructors for banning it in their facility purely due to the risk concerns. It's hard enough to teach people to not flag themselves when holstering IWB.

Whether it makes sense in the real world is certainly a different question.

 

[Brychan]

Your average new shooter is not up to using shoulder holsters and cross-draw safely. I don't blame the instructors for banning it in their facility purely due to the risk concerns. It's hard enough to teach people to not flag themselves when holstering IWB.

Whether it makes sense in the real world is certainly a different question.

Why, it can be taught in the classroom. Not allowing it during the actual range portion is another thing.

This was my only gripe with the training, and wasn't that big of deal for me personally as I have handled and carried handguns at least a couple of decades longer than my instructor has been breathing. My thing was telling new shooters that its too dangerous to discuss, but shoving a pistol down the front of pants is fine. Anyway it just has been kinda bugging me.

 

[davsco]

with cross draw and shoulder holster you have the ability if not likelihood to point your gun at others while drawing (and holstering).

 

[smokey]

I think the key to this is the range certification. Most ranges do not allow cross draw or shoulder holsters because they break the 180 rule. You may not sweep yourself, but you do muzzle every other shooter on the line to your left.

At the range, you probably aren't sitting down, so careful draw from appendix should miss your legs.

Yup. This is why it's not allowed in many shooting sports. When you're drawing, the muzzle is pointing behind you at first. If you ND on the draw, it could send a shot back to the shot timer/spectators. Outside of a range setting with the 180 degree rule, it's no more or less dangerous than any other method.

As hogarth mentioned, it can be pretty great for seated positions(car, working at home) or if you wear a jacket all the time with a tucked in shirt. Now that you've got your carry permit, just carry however you wish. Just be sure to practice and slow TF down whenever it's time to re-holster. 3 oclock carry is made safer by "hipping out" when reholstering so if it fires, it'll land in the dirt instead of your leg or foot. Appendix can be made safer by either steping your right foot back and hipping forward to get your leg/bojangles out of the way or just yanking the holster, inserting the gun, and then putting the holstered gun on.

The only carry method I'm not super wild about is the one pimped by worth a shot.... small of the back carry. They wouldn't allow me to use their holster/trainer gun appendix because they said it's an unsafe method of carry because you sweep everyone on the draw. They also said if you print, it's illegal because it's a concealed carry permit. They teach small of the back carry and snapping your strong side elbow to your side on the draw....thustly flagging the F out of yourself and ending up in the sh!ttiest of compressed firing positions. Basically everything they taught about this carry method was absolute BS.

Reasons I don't like small of the back carry are that it's easier for someone else to get the gun, more difficult for you to get the gun, slower, results in you flagging your entire lower body if done in the way they taught(elbow snap), and makes it impossible to draw the gun if sitting(especially in a car).

Easier for someone else to get the gun- It's placing the gun in your blind spot. Anyone standing behind you can pretty much just go for your gun at their leisure, making you need to be super aware of anyone behind you all the time. Your arms are made to extend forward, and aren't great at extending backwards. This makes it more difficult to defend your gun if someone is going for it. Contrast that with appendix, where you can easily lock the gun down with one arm while attacking the person trying to get it with the other.

More difficult for you to get the gun/slower- Again, your arms are made to move from about 5 oclock to 7 oclock on your belt line. They're typically down at 10 and 2, and it's natural to have hands around your pocket/belt buckle area without drawing suspicion. Planting the gun on your back means reaching wayyy back there to get it and then bringing it back around your body before you can use it. If you're at contact distance or physically grappling with the badguy, it removes one of your arms from the fight completely in a very obvious tell that you're going for a gun.

Flagging yourself- This isn't necessarily a thing, but it is how they taught. They didn't teach to pull the gun up and then muzzle around your leg at the dirt in an arc. They taught to get your grip on the gun, pull up, and snap your elbow to your hip. This essentially makes your muzzle point directly at your lower back straight through to your groin/ front of your thigh until your elbow settles. This is then the compressed position they taught that you can fire your first show from. In this position, your gun is projected somewhat far in front of you and supported only by one hand.

Contrast this with a 3/4 oclock draw to a pec index. The muzzle simply lifts straight up until it rotates up and to the front, staying pointed at the dirt next to your strong side leg. Once at pec-index(mag baseplate stuck to your ribs with the slide canted outward at 45 degrees), you can actively defend with your support-side arm as you fire. With appendix, you can do the same, speeding it up somewhat by blading off a bit.

Drawing in a car/sitting- Small of the back plants the gun between you and the seat. You need to sit forward to get access and then sweep the gun alll the way from 6 o'clock around to 9 in a car... hopefully compressed over the wheel instead of flagging yourself. Appendix, you simply lift your shirt and draw as normal. 3/4 oclock may require you to unclick/clear the belt with your left arm as you draw with your right. Shoulder just allows you to draw as normal and results in the gun coming out already at the 9 oclock(no need to clear the wheel), and you can hide your movements if you have your arms crossed to begin with.

In short, I'm not a fan of small of the back carry.

 

[erwos]

Why, it can be taught in the classroom. Not allowing it during the actual range portion is another thing.

This was my only gripe with the training, and wasn't that big of deal for me personally as I have handled and carried handguns at least a couple of decades longer than my instructor has been breathing. My thing was telling new shooters that its too dangerous to discuss, but shoving a pistol down the front of pants is fine. Anyway it just has been kinda bugging me.

Every reputable instructor I've ever trained with has followed the four safety rules even with unloaded guns in the classroom, and I think this is a pretty wise decision. Too dangerous to discuss is perhaps an exaggeration, but as Hogarth mentioned with his blog link, there are a number of reasons why shoulder carry and cross-draw aren't very good technique in general.

Small of back is slow and difficult to secure, I'm unsure why anyone in the year 2022 would be promoting that.

 

[davsco]

but shoving a pistol down the front of pants is fine.

with appendix, you're the one getting shot if the gun goes off. with cross draw and shoulder, others will likely get hurt if the gun goes off. we don't want anyone getting shot but certainly not innocent 3rd parties.

that said, no reason to practice all methods, at least with blue guns. and of course plenty carry cross and shoulder carry without any issues.