One of my "must haves" for my collection is a Spanish American War vintage .30-40 Krag carbine. I have read that a number of full length Krag rifles were cut down to carbine length in the early 1900s for civilian sale. Is there an easy way to tell the original carbines from the conversions?
Real vs. Cut-down Krag Carbine
- Thread starter JHE1956
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Squaregrouper
Kragaphile
Yes. This is relatively easy, except with '98 Carbines- avoid at any cost- almost all are fake.
The #1 thing to look at is the front sight. If it has a band around it- cut off.
Carbine barrels are exactly 22".
The carbine stock is almost impossible to fake. It would take an expert with a LOT of time to replicate the length and dimensions of a carbine stock if they started with a rifle stock.
Carbine stocks hold the barrel band with a spring, not a screw.
Look at the rear sight- Carbines have a "C" on them and have other specifics- do your homework here.
Get Joe Poyer's Book- The American Krag Rifle and Carbine. It costs <$30 and will give serial number ranges of what could be a carbine vs. what is NOT a carbine.
I have a rare 1895 variant of an 1896 carbine (confirmed) I could be talked in to selling. It is the "trial run" 1896 Carbine. I must confirm that that the rear sight is from a '96 rifle, not a '96 carbine.
The #1 thing to look at is the front sight. If it has a band around it- cut off.
Carbine barrels are exactly 22".
The carbine stock is almost impossible to fake. It would take an expert with a LOT of time to replicate the length and dimensions of a carbine stock if they started with a rifle stock.
Carbine stocks hold the barrel band with a spring, not a screw.
Look at the rear sight- Carbines have a "C" on them and have other specifics- do your homework here.
Get Joe Poyer's Book- The American Krag Rifle and Carbine. It costs <$30 and will give serial number ranges of what could be a carbine vs. what is NOT a carbine.
I have a rare 1895 variant of an 1896 carbine (confirmed) I could be talked in to selling. It is the "trial run" 1896 Carbine. I must confirm that that the rear sight is from a '96 rifle, not a '96 carbine.
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Squaregrouper
Kragaphile
The "King of all Krags" is an 1895/1896 Carbine which is confirmed by The Springfield Research Service (SRS) to be a Rough Riders Carbine. This documentation confirms it was with Teddy Roosevelt in Cuba. They are worth well in excess of $3,000!!!
A "rusty junker" Rough Rider Carbine is still worth >$2,000. Any fellow Kragaphile would get a TR woody handling one of these.
A "rusty junker" Rough Rider Carbine is still worth >$2,000. Any fellow Kragaphile would get a TR woody handling one of these.
mawkie
C&R Whisperer
If you are planning on the purchase of a coveted piece that has been a favorite of forgers you need to do your research. Krag carbines certainly fall into this category. Take squaregrouper's advice and purchase a good reference work to help you ID the real from the fake. $30 or even $100 is a bargain if it saves you hundreds. Search out online forums where the Krag experts and veterans hang out and do some lurking to soak up knowledge.
Squaregrouper
Kragaphile
Krag Collector's Association and Jouster.com are good Krag forums. Joe Farmer (5madfarmers) and Dick Hosmer are very highly regarded in my eyes.
dre271
Dre
Krag 98 Carbine
I was one of the lucky individuals to pick up a Krag Carbine '98 in a bulk purchase ten years ago. A little bit a patina and the stock is ok. How much is one of these worth, selling it for what it really is (a fake)?
I was one of the lucky individuals to pick up a Krag Carbine '98 in a bulk purchase ten years ago. A little bit a patina and the stock is ok. How much is one of these worth, selling it for what it really is (a fake)?
Squaregrouper
Kragaphile
If the serial # is not between 120,000 and 131,000 it is definitely not a carbine.
Does the rear sight have the letter "C" on it? If no, it is not a carbine.
There were only 5,000 '98 carbines made and there are tens of thousands of fakes out there.
I would need pics to give you a guesstimated value, but a "fake" '98 carbine is typically worth $200-$500 depending on condition.
I have no idea how much a "real" '98 carbine is worth- they are that rare.
Krags
Yes, a true 1898C should fall into the serial number range mentioned if you want other collectors to accept it readily. The truth is, there is a little uncertainty about the serial number range for the 1898C and it's possible to have one outside that range but not probable (it would be the first). The absolute way to tell is if the action is stamped Model 1898, the barrel is exactly 22" long and the front sight base is the authentic Krag base, brazed into a dovetail slot, the center of which is about 3/4" from the muzzle. Having the correctly marked (C) rear sight does not prove it a carbine but it helps a lot to have one. These have been swapped and even faked (made from 1896 rifle sights, which are similar) in the past.
So many 1898 'sporters' were made in the early 20th century. I wouldn't call them fakes really, just an attempt at the time to make good sporting rifles with the qualities of the cavalry carbine. Usually they have a 1903 front sight installed (its banded) and are cut to approximately 22" (from 30"). They made these in large number because there were so many rifles available, released from the arsenals, and comparatively few carbines, which were preferred. Even a few authentic but relocated front sights exist on 22" cut down rifles but they won't be dovetailed and brazed. These are crossing over the "fake" line a little in my opinion. Look for the brazed/dovetailed front sight base, you can see it if you look closely, to authenticate any Krag rifle or carbine.
Yes, a true 1898C should fall into the serial number range mentioned if you want other collectors to accept it readily. The truth is, there is a little uncertainty about the serial number range for the 1898C and it's possible to have one outside that range but not probable (it would be the first). The absolute way to tell is if the action is stamped Model 1898, the barrel is exactly 22" long and the front sight base is the authentic Krag base, brazed into a dovetail slot, the center of which is about 3/4" from the muzzle. Having the correctly marked (C) rear sight does not prove it a carbine but it helps a lot to have one. These have been swapped and even faked (made from 1896 rifle sights, which are similar) in the past.
So many 1898 'sporters' were made in the early 20th century. I wouldn't call them fakes really, just an attempt at the time to make good sporting rifles with the qualities of the cavalry carbine. Usually they have a 1903 front sight installed (its banded) and are cut to approximately 22" (from 30"). They made these in large number because there were so many rifles available, released from the arsenals, and comparatively few carbines, which were preferred. Even a few authentic but relocated front sights exist on 22" cut down rifles but they won't be dovetailed and brazed. These are crossing over the "fake" line a little in my opinion. Look for the brazed/dovetailed front sight base, you can see it if you look closely, to authenticate any Krag rifle or carbine.
Stay far away from the sporterized Krag "carbines" done back in the day. Very tough sell. Certainly not gaining any credibility. At the end of the day, they are butcher jobs. I've seen one locally in excellent condition (with correct patina) for $450. Even at that price, there are zero takers. It might be worth $300 tops.
This is exactly why even though I really really want one (it would be a pinnacle purchase for me) I havent dabbled, too much money and too easy to make a mistake. Telling between real, DCM/NRA, and bubba the backwoodsman is too hard. Its not like fake can cost you a little in this market, it can cost you the difference between a $300 and a $3000 gun.
That said a confirmed DCM/NRA carbine would be fine by me for a shooter. But they seem (with reasonable provenance) to be running around $500 to $600 alone these days (and those are the ones people are not claiming as original carbines).
The DCM and Bannerman cut down Krag rifles are even harder to authenticate but generally they'll have 22"+/- barrels, a 1903 Springfield front sight and their original 1902, 1901 or 1898 Krag rear rifle sight. I have a suspected one but there's no way to tell for sure. They were imitated and many of them were later refinished or further modified too. Most of them started life as 1898 rifles since those were the most numerous and in the best condition when the arsenals released them. There is also the subcategory of very nicely customized Krag sporters. Townsend Whelen's is perhaps the best example. There's a photo of it out on the net somewhere; it was made by Fred Adolph I think. I'd trade an authentic carbine for a Krag like that.
Very good point. Probably not apparent in my earlier posts is that the only Krag in my collection right now is a full-custom competition rifle built professionally many decades ago. The type of Krag that is a sight to behold, sells in the thousands, and is night-and-day different from the cheap chops and bargain-basement "sporters".
Squaregrouper
Kragaphile
Take a look at this one...
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=363179664
Mighty impressive and they're not BS'ing you. IF I was looking for a "faux carbine", I would jump all over this one.
Agreed. Looks like a well-done reproduction for a very fair price.
Squaregrouper
Kragaphile
This is the problem with '98 Carbines. There is no absolute way to determine whether they are authentic- aside from a letter from The Springfield Research Service (SRS).
