RFB rant

[boatbiologist]

I went to the York show in Feb looking for a SCAR17 or RFB. Both were pretty hard to find then. Considered myself lucky that ShootersSupply had a RFB and even luckier that they weren't charging what GunBroker had them for.

Bought it. Took it to Myrtle Grove. Shooting the same South African mil surp my FAL loves, the RFB blew its gas piston past my face before its first mag change.

Rick @ Keltec tells me to ship it back at my expense. I include 20 rounds of the ammo used.

It returns with a new piston and gas block but won't eject into the tube. This requires disassembly to clear since the ejection is internal. I clearly wasted the box of ammo as they never did a function check. I am told to just return the bolt at my expense again, as they are aware of a bad batch of springs that are in some RFB bolts.

Range trip #3 seems to finally be working until I clean it afterwards and the welded in bolt carrier reinforcing tab falls out when I remove the charge handle.

This time, Andrew at Keltec says he will send a shipping label. The first time was 10/13. Phone calls and emails from me and I still don't have that shipping label. I shipped it again at my expense (about $25 from FedEx) 11/9. This rifle should have enough frequent flyer miles now for a ski trip.

I put a AAC Blackout mount on it in hopes of putting a 762SDN6 on it, but I don't think this rifle can take the extra gas. Disappointed.

Andrew @ Keltec wrote that he would install a gen2 gas system this time which should actually work. So far, their skills gunsmithing have been on par with their customer service. I don't know what to do but cross my fingers.

Rant over

 

[mikec]

Please keep us up to date. I am glad I resisted the "WANT" for one of these.

Go fondle the FAL when you can.

 

[NateTheShake]

Haven't been impressed with Kel Tec's quality in the past, but I had high hopes for this rifle and was kind of hoping they'd eventually work on a scaled down (5.56) version. Considering how long the wait has been and how hard they are to come by I would have hoped little shit like this would have been well eliminated by now.

Fingers crossed they'll fix your issues, but it's total ******** they are making you pay for the shipping. How much do those rifles retail for???

Looks like another platform with more investment in advertising than engineering *coughACRcough*.

 

[boatbiologist]

Totally killed my boner for the KSG too.

I'm going to push a thousand rounds thru it when I get it back. I have trust issues that need to be worked out with that rifle.

 

[NateTheShake]

Totally killed my boner for the KSG too.

What about the RMR-30? Still just a prototype, but what an awesome idea for a PDW...

It's a PMC-30 (.22 Mag) frame with a rifle upper.

 

[Midgettem1]

I'm sorry to hear about the troubles with yours. My RFB had some issues with the finish on the bolt- after the first time I had it out the finish started to peel. I contacted Kel-Tec and they said to send the bolt back. I did (8 dollars shipping- not a big deal- also not a full rifle)- and eight days later, I got a new bolt with a completly new finish. My RFB runs like a champ now.

I understand that you have the Gen-1 gas system, which from what I understand has had a lot of trouble. Mine's the Gen-2, and I haven't had an issue yet. I got a lot of good info from the Kel Tec forum.

I hope the Gen-2 gas system solves your problems!

 

[boatbiologist]

I love their ideas. I really do. I just wish FN or somebody that knows how to build a firearm would build it. It would be a cheaper alternative to this

Which neither has ever failed me.

 

[boatbiologist]

Mine's the Gen-2

Glad you got the newer gas system. I was reading your posts and didn't want to dump my rant on your good times. How does the gen2 system differ. I have only heard that it is a longer piston stroke.

 

[Midgettem1]

Glad you got the newer gas system. I was reading your posts and didn't want to dump my rant on your good times. How does the gen2 system differ. I have only heard that it is a longer piston stroke.

There is a difference in the piston itself as well as the welds inside the chamber system, I believe. I would have to see them side by side to tell.

No worries, I've had enough issues with new guns this year to be completely understanding with your frustration. Hopefully Kel Tec makes everything right and you get yours running

 

[SCARCQB]

RFB, KSG , Piston ARs and SIG556 just got dropped from the shortlist.

My wife wanted me to say : thankyou" on her behalf......

 

[Nemesis]

personally i've never been a fan of kel-tec...their polymer work looks and feels like crap, and their guns are made of 75% of it...i know they have SOME fans, but i will never be one of them.

i hope your issues get worked out.

 

[Lykaios]

Totally killed my boner for the KSG too.

I'm going to push a thousand rounds thru it when I get it back. I have trust issues that need to be worked out with that rifle.

RFB, KSG , Piston ARs and SIG556 just got dropped from the shortlist.

My wife wanted me to say : thankyou" on her behalf......

Does hope HAVE to be lost for the KSG especially??

Then again, I figure they are like Ruger to that next level (unfortunately...and from what I hear. I don't know much about Ruger first-hand) first generation-wise. I will wait for bugs to be worked out and do research to see if there is a model or year I need to buy over another (like the Gen2 gas system difference).

Does Kel-Tec realize that they are earning their reputation with situations like this?? 'Shame.....I really like my PF-9 too. Hopefully my fears are proven wrong.

 

[Forest]

What about the RMR-30? Still just a prototype, but what an awesome idea for a PDW...

It's a PMC-30 (.22 Mag) frame with a rifle upper.

That looks very nice, given the right price I'd pick one up for plinking duty.

 

[Midgettem1]

To tell ya'll the truth- I wasn't a huge fan of Kel Tec before I bought my RFB. I'm not a huge fan of their polymer pistols- with the exception being the PMR-30, if I can ever find one. With that said, I really do love my RFB. After Kel Tec replaced the bolt, it's run great on surplus German 7.62X51. I like the way it shoulders, and once I got the gas system dialed in, the recoil is very light, for the round. I have a FAL as well, and, while the FAL feels (and probably is) more sturdy, the RFB is significantly lighter, and more accurate (for me at least).

Like with any new weapons system there are going to be teething issues. I hope that boatbiologist is able to enjoy his as much as I enjoy mine- assuming Kel Tec is able to make it right.

 

[NateTheShake]

Zero issues with my RFB.

I run Black Hills and Winchester through it however.

I'd be more concerned about running .308WIN loads through it than milsurp 7.62X51mm after hearing this.

Keep in mind 308WIN vs 7.62x51mm is the opposite of 5.56x45 vs .223REM. In the 30 cal's case the commercial load is hotter than the military load.


One could say this sounds like the typical "teething" issues of a generation one platform. It's understandable that there will be issues off the get-go with first generation anything, 100% of the bugs will never be worked out. However a rifle not making it through twenty damn rounds the first time out of the box is unacceptable. This isn't product development issues, it's quality control. For the amount of money these cost and the time it's taken to get it to market I would expect much better out of the box. Not to mention making the customer pay to ship their obviously defective rifle back MULTIPLE time? Inexcusable.

Kel Tec has had a bit of a spotty reputation in the past, but like any other company I'm happy to let them evolve and won't write them off altogether just because their initial products were a little rough. BUT if they want to be taken seriously they need to work these major issues out prior to releasing a product and then make every attempt to fix smaller issues when they come about. In the day of internet forums every bad product or customer service experience is known to the community within hours.

 

[zombiehunter]

I had the same problem with my PLR-16. They wanted me to pay to ship it back. Fortunately, I bought it at Scott's. They're a reputable local shop and 'smith and they said "leave it here, we'll figure it out." Turns out the feed lips on my AR mags weren't smooth enough, for a little more than the cost of shipping and a whole lot less time I'll have my gun back and happy.

This is one of those times I like to buy from a local shop. Guns of an unknown quality, if something goes wrong I want a person I can look in the eye to be responsible not some jackwagon over the phone.

Scott's customer service is why I've already planned my next 4 purchases through them >.< now just to work the OT lol.

Sorry for the threadjack, Cliff notes:

Same crappy customer service, my problem was fixed easily, good luck to you with yours!

 

[Midgettem1]

I dunno.. If he had the Gen 1 gas system on the rifle, it seems like that was the issue. Seeing as Kel Tec already modified the system with the Gen 2, that seems like the problem the OP has was part of the initial "teething" of a new weapons system.

I don't think the OP should have had to pay to ship his rifle back to KT- that just seems like something the warrenty should cover. I'm not sure why they don't cover the cost of shipping- I think that would go a long way towards bettering their CS rep.

With the RFB specifically it seems like for every problem or issue I hear about the gun there are at least two people that chime in with "never had a problem". Just my own observation though.

 

[hvymax]

This is about as good as my Kel Tek experience 20yrs ago. The KTOG site got me through turning it into a usable firearm.

 

[Midgettem1]

I've been hitting them up since I got my RFB... theyhave a much better explaination on how to adjust the gas system than the RFB instructions.

 

[EngageSmith]

I dunno.. If he had the Gen 1 gas system on the rifle, it seems like that was the issue. Seeing as Kel Tec already modified the system with the Gen 2, that seems like the problem the OP has was part of the initial "teething" of a new weapons system.

I don't think the OP should have had to pay to ship his rifle back to KT- that just seems like something the warrenty should cover. I'm not sure why they don't cover the cost of shipping- I think that would go a long way towards bettering their CS rep.

With the RFB specifically it seems like for every problem or issue I hear about the gun there are at least two people that chime in with "never had a problem". Just my own observation though.

Midgettem1 brought his RFB to me to get some insight on problems (as stated above) with his bolt/gas system, and to have some accessories installed. Another customer had issues as well, much like the OP of this thread. He had a shell jam up on entering the ejection chute and broke a few welds on the assembly where the recoil springs attach to the bolt carrier assembly. Both times issues were resolved by sending parts back to Kel-Tec.

Midgettem1 plans on running this suppressed, and the other customer I spoke of runs a Surefire brake with a FA762K, and after receiving detailed instructions from Kel-Tec about how to set up the gas regulator he has had no more issues. It runs best with the 7.62x51 NATO ammo, which is lower pressure than the commercial .308 (again as stated above, thanks for pointing that out!).

As stated above, any first-gen weapons system tends to have teething issues. Especially with companies like Kel-Tec which don't appear to have huge R&D budgets. They're not H&K, FN Herstal, etc. who develop weapons to be sold to military/gov't/police agencies as their primary customers. I can pretty much guarantee there are no LEO agencies that issue any sort of Kel-Tec for anything. As such, early adopters should almost expect some issues. As a gunsmith I can say many many weapons need a break-in period to work properly anyway. My advice is to give the manufacturer a chance to resolve the issues (which you have, and they seem to be trying ), that is what tells what sort of character and integrity they have.



Opinion on Kel-Tec CNC Industries, Inc. in general - there was quite a discussion about this company at the shop last night, as a matter of fact. IMHO, I think Kel-Tec is an interesting company who has sort of built themselves into their own distinct niche market. They offer inexpensive CCW pistols, and off-the-wall carbines, the RFB and possibly a hi-cap bullpup shotgun... Their guns do have a high amount of cheapish-feeling plastic and look more like the toy guns I played with as a kid than serious battle weapons, but a lot of people like them. You don't know how many people we get in here asking about the Sub-2000, RFB, KSG, PMR-30 etc.

We'd love to offer the PMR-30, but with the 30-round magazine and absence of a .22 WMR Omega lock, it's pretty hard to get sold in MD, despite it being on the approved roster.