SAF SUES IN MARYLAND OVER HANDGUN PERMIT DENIAL UPDATED 3-5-12

[Inigoes]

Patrick,

Thank you for taking the time to comment on todays events. Sounds like it would have been really fun to be there.

 

[Plinkey]

It don't think it was intentional, but the judge appeared to have places to go and he started about 30 minutes late.

Thanks for the updates!

What is the next step in the process for those of use not well versed on how civil suits like this play out? Will the judge have/request more of these 'information sessions' until he feels he has enough info to make a decision?

Does the final decision and breadth come down to this judge?

 

[Patrick]

Thanks for the updates!

What is the next step in the process for those of use not well versed on how civil suits like this play out? Will the judge have/request more of these 'information sessions' until he feels he has enough info to make a decision?

Does the final decision and breadth come down to this judge?

Sorry. Important question.

The judge really is interested in the masciandaro density question. He offered to both counsel - if they agreed - to let them submit an additional brief on the topic. He did not "invite them" to do it, because frankly it is a lot to digest and he was pretty impressed with the existing arguments. But he did recognize that his track there was unanticipated and therefore open to further comment as each side considered it further. It was a classy move.

He suggested it would be 3-4 weeks before he could dig into this case in depth. Sounds like he has some vacation coming up.

Assume he digs into this in 4 weeks and takes another 4 weeks to belt out an opinion.

Two months. Maybe.

 

[Plinkey]

Cool, thanks. So two months on an opinion after some more paperwork by both parties?

 

[Patrick]

Maybe. And they may not want to file anything at this point.

We want this case over fast, no matter the outcome. I am not sure we want to extend it further with more briefs.

 

[Plinkey]

Thanks for the quick replies.

I find this whole process fascinating even though I understand maybe 40% of it in relation to the whole.

From my completely un-trained legal eye it seems that the judge is starting to side with G&S not being legit but it also seems that he won't go so far as to rule on where one can carry a gun in the state (because that's not being asked really). Should be interesting in the coming months.

 

[Lightning]

Patrick,

As the others have said THANK YOU!!!! You are destined for Sainthood
in the eyes of us layman.

 

[Ethan83]

Maybe. And they may not want to file anything at this point.

We want this case over fast, no matter the outcome. I am not sure we want to extend it further with more briefs.

Part of the 'lose fast' strategy?

Reminds me of a sales strategy where one of the goals is to get a 'no' as fast as possible... It allows you to focus your energy and time on the potential 'yes' responses.

But even if Judge Legg rules in our favor, MD isn't going to be forced right away to change any policies or laws until this case or another relevant one makes its way to the top, right?

 

[Lightning]

Question about Briefs

I was wondering why there was not a host of briefs filed on behalf of Woolard and the Second Amendment Foundation. You would of thought groups such as the NRA and the like would have filed briefs to support their case. Hell with Wisconsin going shall issue I think there are 40 or 41 states that issue CCW permits in some manner.

I just thought it was strange…..not to see this form of support.

 

[SkunkWerX]

The idea of saying MD could ban CCW due to population density is a bit disappointing. if a businessman currently has a permit, and he is depositing large sums of cash at a busy bank, on a Friday, at lunchtime, and the bank has lines of customers, is he prohibited from CCW-ing? (rhetorical).

However, if I might try to unwravel the judge's inquiries a bit, when he asked about someone in East Baltimore being able to get a permit (or not) could he have been actually trying to split ideas on the density topic?

ie; It may be OK to ban CCW in a crowded train station at rush hour, but not on a public street in East Baltimore? In other words, people don't usually congregate to great physical density (coming into contact and/or personal space violations) out on a public sidewalk, like they might at a rock concert with festival seating?

Of course, like Gura said, that may be another court case. Teratos brought it up a couple of pages back, MD will certainly push the envelope on density and/or sensitive places and other possible shenanigans.

Question: Does it appear that Judge Legg wants to do a little more than just simply rule on G&S? That he is concerned with fallout and making this decision as orderly and as unconfusing as possible? I am suggesting, that as he leans toward "outside the home" he is concerned that he doesn't leave a huge void, that there is room around the fringes for MD to have enough breathing room to effect policy that really might make some sense (ie; banning CCW at a rock concert or in a packed train station)?

I think Judge Legg is looking more for the boundaries, should he find for the Plaintiff.

 

[Ethan83]

I was wondering why there was not a host of briefs filed on behalf of Woolard and the Second Amendment Foundation. You would of thought groups such as the NRA and the like would have filed briefs to support their case. Hell with Wisconsin going shall issue I think there are 40 or 41 states that issue CCW permits in some manner.

I just thought it was strange…..not to see this form of support.

MD doesn't seem to really exist to the NRA. I still wear an NRA hat to piss off liberals in Baltimore City, but my money only goes to SAF.

 

[Plinkey]

I still wear an NRA hat to piss off liberals in Baltimore City...

We're not all bad.

 

[Ethan83]

We're not all bad.

I'll believe it when I see it. I'm not including classical liberals, of course.

 

[Dogabutila]

Part of the 'lose fast' strategy?

Reminds me of a sales strategy where one of the goals is to get a 'no' as fast as possible... It allows you to focus your energy and time on the potential 'yes' responses.

But even if Judge Legg rules in our favor, MD isn't going to be forced right away to change any policies or laws until this case or another relevant one makes its way to the top, right?

If we win this one, G&S is done and over with and barring an injunction you can apply for and receive a permit without being (related to) somebody important or resorting to bribery.

 

[Ethan83]

barring an injunction

So what are the odds of that? I'm sure MD would do everything it could to stall, including getting an injunction, whatever that process entails.

 

[MDFF2008]

So what are the odds of that? I'm sure MD would do everything it could to stall, including getting an injunction, whatever that process entails.

Asking the 4th circuit for an injunction.

50/50 on rather or not the 4th would grant it. Patrick has hinted that since 2A is a civil right, it is much, much harder to get an injunction since the government is basically saying "we were told not to violate this right, but we need to do it anyway."

 

[Al Norris]

Patrick, that was an excellent summary of what appears to be a very good hearing.

Thank you for all your time and the effort you put into this.

 

[Dogabutila]

So what are the odds of that? I'm sure MD would do everything it could to stall, including getting an injunction, whatever that process entails.

It really depends on how well they can reframe the need for it. They need to show a specific need for why the previous ruling cant be put into place or some irreparable harm would be done.

 

[Smagel]

Patrick, that was an excellent summary of what appears to be a very good hearing.

Thank you for all your time and the effort you put into this.

Agreed. This has been an excellent and quick education.

 

[ezliving]

Thanks, Patrick. Fantastic update. I'm anxious to hear the audio.
This update read like the best case scenario for our hearing.
I'm ready to go shopping. This is getting very exciting.