SBR and SRS ruling by MSP

[Name Taken]

Hey guess what? If they signed off on you would be hard pressed to find a judge to put you away.. see; the state made a mistake. Worst case confiscate the gun, or sell out of state. Example- In the 80's Joe Poyer filled with BATF to import about 200 Aussie L!A1's. ATF approved this after receiving a sample. Guess what, they were real L1A1 uppers, w/o the safety sear, right pistol grip and selector full auto. Replacing (2) easily attainable parts and adding the 3rd will make a real machine gun (being a sear cut receiver). ATF realized this after the fact, tried to stop the sales. Poyer sued.. Guess what he did not go to jail for what would be 200 -thats 200 unregistered machine guns. What did happen is that he was allowed to sell his guns and the aft has a serial number range along with a letter attesting you can own it. This make these guns the most desirable L1A1's in America. So, no jail, not even confiscation, so there are exemptions to illegal guns if you followed the appropriate rules and paperwork.

Anyone willing to hang their hat on that legal case is out of their mind and will likely be out of their money AND property at the end of about 6-10 years of court cases.

You might very well argue an entrapment case or get a judge/jury who decides MSP did wrong and will let you slide. There is nothing saying they will return your illegal property and nothing saying you wont have several thousand dollars in legal fee's hoping to find a sensible judge and appeal panels.

At your own risk as the saying goes.

 

[11b10]

Remember, just because they signed it doesn't mean the gun you have isn't illegal.

Anyone willing to hang their hat on that legal case is out of their mind and will likely be out of their money AND property at the end of about 6-10 years of court cases.

You might very well argue an entrapment case or get a judge/jury who decides MSP did wrong and will let you slide. There is nothing saying they will return your illegal property and nothing saying you wont have several thousand dollars in legal fee's hoping to find a sensible judge and appeal panels.

At your own risk as the saying goes.

I did not say to use that case as the basis of a case as related in SB281, just as an example that when the state creates an error, it is very,very hard for them to justify putting you away, not to mention when the appeals court hears that the state ok'ed it, but now wants to prosecute does not make the prosecutor look good.

So, can you show me a real case where someone got state and or federal approval for a gun- took position and is now serving time?

 

[Mark75H]

Century imported a batch of PSL's with safety sears ... all ATF did was make them get the guns back from the people who bought them.

 

[11b10]

Ohh, and as a side nor (name taken) Poyer would have walked from the illegal machine gun deal with a public defender, because the Fed's screwed up,, ATF was going to confiscate and destroy (no jail). He then sued them for what would have been a finical loss, to retain and sell his guns.

 

[11b10]

Century imported a batch of PSL's with safety sears ... all ATF did was make them get the guns back from the people who bought them.

Exactly.. How many people from century arms, the retailers or the individuals that bought them are in jail?? Those guns would all be unregistered machine guns. See- Century filled out paperwork to import, ATF made a mistake, ATF can not then file charges, prosecute and put you away for their incompetence. See, judges will ask questions like who approved these to be imported, and if you allowed them to be imported haw can Mr. Jones be in position of an illegal item you approved?

 

[teratos]

Exactly.. How many people from century arms, the retailers or the individuals that bought them are in jail?? Those guns would all be unregistered machine guns. See- Century filled out paperwork to import, ATF made a mistake, ATF can not then file charges, prosecute and put you away for their incompetence. See, judges will ask questions like who approved these to be imported, and if you allowed them to be imported haw can Mr. Jones be in position of an illegal item you approved?

This is Maryland. They are prosecuting a gun dealer who said he would ship > 10 round magazines out of State to a purchasers brother. The "purchaser" was an undercover police officer. Don't put anything past them. Once you get in front of a judge, it has already cost you thousands of dollars. Even if you are exonerated, you are still out the money.

 

[11b10]

This is Maryland. They are prosecuting a gun dealer who said he would ship > 10 round magazines out of State to a purchasers brother. The "purchaser" was an undercover police officer. Don't put anything past them. Once you get in front of a judge, it has already cost you thousands of dollars. Even if you are exonerated, you are still out the money.

Are we even on the same planet?? Shipping magazines out of state over 10 rounds, undercover officer, wow. What does the law say about that? Magazines?

"A person may not manufacture, sell, offer for sale, purchase, receive, or transfer a detachable magazine that has a capacity of more than 10 rounds of ammunition for a firearm."

I think sell and transfer of a larger than 10rd. mag caused some problems for this dealer...

So how does a dealer; who should know better, getting taken by an undercover officer while (violating state law)/ equate to the state ok'ed your gun now they will put you in jail. Just because it's Maryland dos'nt mean it's crazyville where anything the prosecutor and judge say. This dealer you referenced brought this on himself, and to blame it on MD and equate they can do anything is delusional. Your (guns,judge,jail) rhetoric is like theater of the absurd.

 

[teratos]

Are we even on the same planet?? Shipping magazines out of state over 10 rounds, undercover officer, wow. What does the law say about that? Magazines?



"A person may not manufacture, sell, offer for sale, purchase, receive, or transfer a detachable magazine that has a capacity of more than 10 rounds of ammunition for a firearm."



I think sell and transfer of a larger than 10rd. mag caused some problems for this dealer...



So how does a dealer; who should know better, getting taken by an undercover officer while (violating state law)/ equate to the state ok'ed your gun now they will put you in jail. Just because it's Maryland dos'nt mean it's crazyville where anything the prosecutor and judge say. This dealer you referenced brought this on himself, and to blame it on MD and equate they can do anything is delusional. Your (guns,judge,jail) rhetoric is like theater of the absurd.

It is not illegal for a dealer to send standard capacity magazines out of State. Nothing.

They may not be sold or transferred in MD. They come with the gun. They are not being sold individually. If a dealer sends them to someone in a free State where they are legal, there is nothing wrong with that. If a guy gets standard capacity magazines out of State and brings them back to MD, there is nothing wrong with that.

By the letter of the law, nothing illegal happened.

 

[Kingjamez]

This is Maryland. They are prosecuting a gun dealer who said he would ship > 10 round magazines out of State to a purchasers brother.

If the purchaser was buying the magazines and then having them shipped out of state, it's pretty cut and dry. That's 100% illegal, the FFL knew better.

If the FFL was sending already purchased mags out of state from a TRANSFER (ie. came with the transferred gun), that's a different matter. If the FFL sends the mags from a gun the purchasers bought from the FFL, it's still illegal.

Do you happen to know which of the above scenarios took place?

-Jim

 

[teratos]

If the purchaser was buying the magazines and then having them shipped out of state, it's pretty cut and dry. That's 100% illegal, the FFL knew better.



If the FFL was sending already purchased mags out of state (ie. came with the gun) that's a different matter.



Do you happen to know which of the above scenarios took place?



-Jim

He is not buying magazines. He is buying a gun that comes with magazines that cannot be transferred in MD. The dealer can possess them, but can't transfer them to a MD resident. They CAN transfer them to someone out of State. Re-read the law. Nothing illegal about it. The man did not pay for magazines, he paid for a firearm.

 

[Kingjamez]

He is not buying magazines. He is buying a gun that comes with magazines that cannot be transferred in MD. The dealer can possess them, but can't transfer them to a MD resident. They CAN transfer them to someone out of State. Re-read the law. Nothing illegal about it. The man did not pay for magazines, he paid for a firearm.

I don't need to re-read the law. If the magazines came as a package deal with the gun, then when the purchaser bought the gun, he bought the magazines. That is illegal, no ambiguity here. That violates: sell, offer for sale, and purchase (on the part of the UCPO).

-Jim

 

[teratos]

I don't need to re-read the law. If the magazines came as a package deal with the gun, then when the purchaser bought the gun, he bought the magazines. That is illegal, no ambiguity here. That violates: sell, offer for sale, and purchase (on the part of the UCPO).



-Jim

Then you can't buy any handgun in MD that comes with magazines that hold more than 10 rounds? That would be what you are saying. No manufacturers send out new handguns without magazines.

 

[protegeV]

 

[11b10]

Then you can't buy any handgun in MD that comes with magazines that hold more than 10 rounds? That would be what you are saying. No manufacturers send out new handguns without magazines.

Actually, than why does Glock makes 10 rd versions of mags?? That are supposed to be 15 rd mags??

 

[teratos]

Actually, than why does Glock makes 10 rd versions of mags?? That are supposed to be 15 rd mags??

Ok. So by your logic we can only buy handguns if they come with less than 10 rounds standard, or if the manufacturer dumbs it down for you. Otherwise, it should not be offered for sale.

 

[Kingjamez]

Then you can't buy any handgun in MD that comes with magazines that hold more than 10 rounds? That would be what you are saying. No manufacturers send out new handguns without magazines.

No, I'm saying you can't buy a handgun with the understanding that it comes with magazines greater than 10 rounds. The FFL can certainly sell you a Glock 17. He just can't offer the standard 15rd magazines as part of the deal. If a FFL sends magazines to where ever you ask, then he has sold you the magazines and you are just picking them up elsewhere.

The right thing for the FFL to do is sell the mags elsewhere (gunbroker etc.) and give you a discount on the gun price.

-Jim

 

[Bart_man]

Jeez 15 pages
I no longer login every day. Oh well subscribe for later detailed reading.
If anyone cares to boil it down to a summary, I'm interested in how this affects my pre Oct VEPR 12 that I planned to SBS on a form 1
Am going now outta luck in MD?

 

[teratos]

No, I'm saying you can't buy a handgun with the understanding that it comes with magazines greater than 10 rounds. The FFL can certainly sell you a Glock 17. He just can't offer the standard 15rd magazines as part of the deal. If a FFL sends magazines to where ever you ask, then he has sold you the magazines you are just picking them up elsewhere.



-Jim

Again, by the letter of the law this is not illegal. The gun is the same price with or without the mags. There is no law prohibiting a MD resident from bringing mags into the State. The mags are paid for with the purchase of the handgun. They cannot be transferred to the buyer. There is nothing in the law that prohibits their shipment out of State.

 

[11b10]

Ok. So by your logic we can only buy handguns if they come with less than 10 rounds standard, or if the manufacturer dumbs it down for you. Otherwise, it should not be offered for sale.

Actually part of that is correct! not by my logic, but by law you can not ship over 10 rd mags to MD after 10/1. Glock is not making these mags to complicate their supply chain, but to address a need for their customers in states with magazine restrictions. Some states you can not even posses a mag over 10rd. So if this was a new gun how did it ship to MD with hi-caps? You can buy a Glock in MD, just not one with hi-caps included, but the gun will still accept them.

 

[Kingjamez]

Jeez 15 pages
I no longer login every day. Oh well subscribe for later detailed reading.
If anyone cares to boil it down to a summary, I'm interested in how this affects my pre Oct VEPR 12 that I planned to SBS on a form 1
Am going now outta luck in MD?

From our (my?) best understanding today: You are good to go. Form 1 SBS's should be just fine POST Oct 1 as long as they don't have a folding stock. Pre Oct 1 Form 1's should be able to have a folding stock as MSP is seemingly considering all guns pre-Oct 1 exempt.

-Jim