SBR, AOW or Firearm? Discussion

[ThisGuy918]

Here is a parts list-
Stripped AR lower purchased undesignated but still regulated.
Under 16 inch AR upper
AR pistol buffer tube(no stock)
rear pistol grip
forward pistol grip
all the other standard semi-auto AR internals
overall length 26.1 inches (not exactly sure how long the barrel + pistol buffer need to be to get 26.1 inches)
List of questions-
1. What is this considered SBR, AOW or Firearm?
2. Also substitute undesignated for pistol receiver. Then what is it?
3. Has anyone done this?
4. Had any problems by doing this?

This was being discussed in this thread- http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=72549
We were definitely hijacking the poor guys thread so I figured I would start one here in the proper section on its own to see what other opinions are out there.
Here are two links MarkP posted in that thread with a weapon that meet the above criteria and a letter from the ATF.
http://www.franklinarmory.com/PRODUCTS_XO-26B.html http://www.franklinarmory.com/XO-26_Letter__c_.pdf

 

[ERIC S NOEL]

FASCINATING . This could open lots of new door's.

 

[Kingjamez]

What is there to discuss? There are 2 ATF letters saying the above described weapon is not an NFA item. End of story.

-Jim

 

[Markp]

What is there to discuss? There are 2 ATF letters saying the above described weapon is not an NFA item. End of story.

-Jim

If the upper is under 16" and the OAL is greater than 26", then:

According to the ATF, it is a firearm.
According to MD State law, it is a possibly a handgun.
If the barrel > 16" and OAL > 26" it is not concealable, from my read of MD state law.

It would seem open and shut, but MD law does not acknowledge the existence of AOW's. However 4-201 states:

(c) (1) "Handgun" means a pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed on the person.
(2) "Handgun" includes a short-barreled shotgun and a short-barreled rifle.
(3) "Handgun" does not include a shotgun, rifle, or antique firearm.

4-203 applies for transport, as near as I can tell as a "Handgun" would include any weapon capable of concealment... one would assume the "26 inch standard" would be applied.

 

[Ab_Normal]

Somewhere in the Md. gobbledegook it states that any firearm with a barrel less than 15 or 16 inches (not sure but I think it specifies 15) is considered a handgun.

 

[Markp]

Somewhere in the Md. gobbledegook it states that any firearm with a barrel less than 15 or 16 inches (not sure but I think it specifies 15) is considered a handgun.

MD specifies 16".

It's either in 4-201,203 or 5-101.

Mark

 

[Ab_Normal]

MD specifies 16".

It's either in 4-201,203 or 5-101.

Mark

Thanks. Sometimes (most times) I get confused.

I think Md. states 'less than 16"' while Pa. states '15" or less'.

Anyway, I knew it was under 16" (15.9999" and shorter) but I just wasn't sure exactly how it was worded. And we all know that the actual wording can have a huge effect on the meaning.

 

[Mobile]

If it has a forward pistol grip, how is it not an AOW?

 

[mikec]

If it has a forward pistol grip, how is it not an AOW?

It doesn't meet the rules for an AOW. Someone created something that is neither fish nor fowl.

http://www.franklinarmory.com/XO-26_Letter__c_.pdf

 

[Markp]

If it has a forward pistol grip, how is it not an AOW?

AOW's MUST be under 26" in overall length...

 

[ThisGuy918]

I really want to build one for giggles to mess with people at the grove but I really don't want to have possibility of getting pinched by the 5-0 for their lack of knowledge. I guess I could carry a copy of the ATF letters and all the laws. Hmm...to build or not to build?

 

[clandestine]

I really want to build one for giggles to mess with people at the grove but I really don't want to have possibility of getting pinched by the 5-0 for their lack of knowledge. I guess I could carry a copy of the ATF letters and all the laws. Hmm...to build or not to build?

Dumbest reason EVER. I hope you have deep pockets.

You think getting thrown out of a range or getting arrested for this is going to be enjoyable?

 

[ThisGuy918]

To Clandestine-
First why would I get kicked out of the range? It's a perfectly legal gun and would be used in a safe manor like any other firearm I own. Purpose is to make people go "wait how is that legal?" and it's just different from the norm. Second the only thing stopping me is that someone law enforcement related who doesn't understand exactly what I have and the letter of the law will arrest me. Most likely they will see pistol with forward pistol grip, no class III stamp and decide to give me a new set of shiny bracelets.
Lastly define deep pockets? Do I build and or buy what I want, when I want, how I want? Yes, everyday because of my own hard work and success. Calling me or my idea dumb because I want to build something to my taste for what ever reason is quite ignorant and childish. So please put your adult hat back on, dig into that wealth of knowledge we all know you have and grace us with your opinion on what it is or is not.

 

[clandestine]

To Clandestine-
First why would I get kicked out of the range? It's a perfectly legal gun and would be used in a safe manor like any other firearm I own. Purpose is to make people go "wait how is that legal?" and it's just different from the norm. Second the only thing stopping me is that someone law enforcement related who doesn't understand exactly what I have and the letter of the law will arrest me. Most likely they will see pistol with forward pistol grip, no class III stamp and decide to give me a new set of shiny bracelets.
Lastly define deep pockets? Do I build and or buy what I want, when I want, how I want? Yes, everyday because of my own hard work and success. Calling me or my idea dumb because I want to build something to my taste for what ever reason is quite ignorant and childish. So please put your adult hat back on, dig into that wealth of knowledge we all know you have and grace us with your opinion on what it is or is not.

The Deep Pockets comment = Legal Fund or Bail Money. I hope the supposed "fun" is worth it for you.

You know it will raise eyebrows with no stamp, you said so. You are playing with fire so have at it, just dont act shocked when other people say its a foolish errand. Tis kind of gun with no stock is pointless in a practical aspect anyway. You want a practical short AR, build a SBR after doing a Form 1. Thats practical.

Theres nothing childish about my comments. Testing Law Enforcement is dumb as I see it.

Carry your BATFE letter, they hold NO LEGAL WEIGHT unless adressed to YOU. Even then BATFE can reverse their opinion and go after all if the smart people who posted their middle finger build online.

 

[Markp]

Carry your BATFE letter, they hold NO LEGAL WEIGHT unless adressed to YOU. Even then BATFE can reverse their opinion and go after all if the smart people who posted their middle finger build online.

Yep, they can...

Still I brought my AR pistol to the range on base today. 7.5 inch pistol build.

Much of how law enforcement treats you directly relates to how you treat them.

Mark

 

[ThisGuy918]

Touche good sir. That is the type of comment I would expect from you.

I agree playing with fire is just not worth the risk but I wouldn't call it dumb. Opinions differ. For me its the annoyance and/or the inconvenience that would bother me more than the actual legal trouble (I spent a lot of time in trouble and in court when I was younger.)

Anyway you look at it this concept is sound and was worth the debate for information only. In a state where rifles are just rifles I would build one of these without a second thought but maryland isn't one of those states.

If I actually was going to build an AR-pistol i would just skip the vertical grip and instead install a magpul foregrip or magwell grip which are both known to be completely legal and raise far fewer eye brows. This would also allow me to use a shorter upper and buffer tube.

Practical does not really apply to any of us. From the guns we own to the houses we live in. Excess would be a better word.

 

[Mobile]

Now that I think about it, I saw something similar: an article on a Draco "pistol" in 7.62x39 which resembled nothing less than a bullpup rifle, less than 26 inches in length, and it was, incredibly, classified as a handgun by the BATF.

 

[Jester1341]

great discusion but in real life wouldnt it just be safe to register it pistol? since the uppers are interchangable isnt it concivable that you may buy a shorter upper to use? if that were the case would it actually matter that you have effectively changed your 'firearm' to a 'pistol' for a day at the range.

the front grip is attached to the upper that keeps your OL at 26.1 but if you moved the front grip to the short upper then you are deffinatlly in AOW area now right? which is an obvious no-no.

john

 

[erwos]

great discusion but in real life wouldnt it just be safe to register it pistol? since the uppers are interchangable isnt it concivable that you may buy a shorter upper to use? if that were the case would it actually matter that you have effectively changed your 'firearm' to a 'pistol' for a day at the range.

As long as it was never a rifle first, I'd think you should be fine. IANAL.

 

[Markp]

great discusion but in real life wouldnt it just be safe to register it pistol? since the uppers are interchangable isnt it concivable that you may buy a shorter upper to use? if that were the case would it actually matter that you have effectively changed your 'firearm' to a 'pistol' for a day at the range.

the front grip is attached to the upper that keeps your OL at 26.1 but if you moved the front grip to the short upper then you are deffinatlly in AOW area now right? which is an obvious no-no.

john

Not all firearms are registered, or even enter into interstate commerce, some even lack serial numbers... yet are completely legal and within the law. Weapon in interstate commerce that do not fall under the NFA are not registered but are "transferred" which technically is not registration.

You can't go to an FFL with a weapon you purchased privately and ask to register it on the federal level (unless it's going to become an NFA weapon).