SBR or pistol

[hailtoby]

Please chime in on the below hypothetical.

-Virgin receiver, no stock, never had a stock installed.
-Mounted on a tripod.
-<16" barrel.

Would that be an SBR or a pistol or something else?

Would caliber matter?

Another way to ask the question is, "What happens when you cant hold a "pistol" and need something other than a stock to support it?"

What about a gatling gun reproduction? Is that a rifle since it doesnt have a stock?

 

[Inigoes]

First question would be:

What kind of Receiver?

 

[hailtoby]

First question would be:

What kind of Receiver?

for discussions sake, either an AR or a 10/22.

 

[Inigoes]

Either are fine as a pistol or SBR, weight will not be that bad.

If you go the pistol route you might want to think about going an AOW, so you can have a foregrip with drum fed happiness.

If you go SBR, then get a folding stock, so you can have CQB options.

 

[hailtoby]

Either are fine as a pistol or SBR, weight will not be that bad.

If you go the pistol route you might want to think about going an AOW, so you can have a foregrip with drum fed happiness.

If you go SBR, then get a folding stock, so you can have CQB options.

Thanks for the suggestion, but the question was: As configured above, would it be considered a SBR or a pistol?

 

[4g64loser]

hailtoby.....

i'm smelling an autonomous gun here.....could be wrong, but that is what this line of questioning smells like.

from a legal standpoint, since you are in MD, the pistol part is a problem because AR pistols are assault weapons and NOT on the MD roster. 10/22 CHARGER receiver is a pistol in MD and is on the list. Also would need a fired shell case and internal lock....(how do ya do that in MD with a virgin PISTOL receiver?) I had this conundrum with pistol frames.....because of my second "job" I just built the frame with spare parts, slapped a series 70 slide I had laying around on it, the 07 fired the shell case, and he put an Omega lock in it for me....

For sake of making things reasonable, take the ball out of Maryland's court and stick the weapon on a federal form. If it is a gun that looks like something else (autogun looks like a mailbox or weathervane or whatever, or a pengun, suitcase gun, etc.) it can be an AOW. Also available is the 2 pistol grips on virgin receiver option.

As for gatling guns (the MANUALLY cranked kind), they are regulated as rifles because a hand crank is not a machine gun, it just lets you pull the trigger faster. I've seen a couple repro guns in 45-70 that are beautiful. also go to shoot a real colt some years back.....its a lot harder than you think, especially when they get dirty!

 

[Inigoes]

Thanks for the suggestion, but the question was: As configured above, would it be considered a SBR or a pistol?

The easiest way to understand is. If the firearm can be shouldered, it's an SBR.

 

[hailtoby]

hailtoby.....

i'm smelling an autonomous gun here.....could be wrong, but that is what this line of questioning smells like.

from a legal standpoint, since you are in MD, the pistol part is a problem because AR pistols are assault weapons and NOT on the MD roster. 10/22 CHARGER receiver is a pistol in MD and is on the list. Also would need a fired shell case and internal lock....(how do ya do that in MD with a virgin PISTOL receiver?) I had this conundrum with pistol frames.....because of my second "job" I just built the frame with spare parts, slapped a series 70 slide I had laying around on it, the 07 fired the shell case, and he put an Omega lock in it for me....

For sake of making things reasonable, take the ball out of Maryland's court and stick the weapon on a federal form. If it is a gun that looks like something else (autogun looks like a mailbox or weathervane or whatever, or a pengun, suitcase gun, etc.) it can be an AOW. Also available is the 2 pistol grips on virgin receiver option.

As for gatling guns (the MANUALLY cranked kind), they are regulated as rifles because a hand crank is not a machine gun, it just lets you pull the trigger faster. I've seen a couple repro guns in 45-70 that are beautiful. also go to shoot a real colt some years back.....its a lot harder than you think, especially when they get dirty!

Thanks for the good answer.

I was basically thinking something along the lines of a gatling gun, definitely hand cranked. I know it requires a hand crank to remain non-NFA.

I just wanted to know if it would need to be registered as an SBR if the barrels were shorter than 16".

 

[mvee]

hailtoby.....

i'm smelling an autonomous gun here.....could be wrong, but that is what this line of questioning smells like.

from a legal standpoint, since you are in MD, the pistol part is a problem because AR pistols are assault weapons and NOT on the MD roster. 10/22 CHARGER receiver is a pistol in MD and is on the list. Also would need a fired shell case and internal lock....(how do ya do that in MD with a virgin PISTOL receiver?) I had this conundrum with pistol frames.....because of my second "job" I just built the frame with spare parts, slapped a series 70 slide I had laying around on it, the 07 fired the shell case, and he put an Omega lock in it for me....

NO!
AR pistols are currently not on the approved roster but they are also not on the "Assault pistol" list either.




The fired shell is required only if a receiver is transferred more or less as a complete gun.

If you only have the FFL transfer the receiver, it's not required:


http://www.dsd.state.md.us/comar/comarhtml/29/29.03.01.31.htm
"www.dsd.state.md.us/comar/comarhtml/29/29.03.01.31.htm"

B. Manufacturer Requirements—New Handguns.

(1) A manufacturer that ships or transports a new handgun, including a handgun frame or receiver that contains a breech face or firing pin or both, or a frame or receiver of a firearm that contains a breech face or firing pin or both that can be readily converted into a handgun, to be sold, rented, or transferred in the State shall include in the box with the handgun, in a separate sealed container, a shell casing of a projectile discharged from that handgun and additional information that identifies the type of handgun and shell casing.




For example, you may take the bare virgin receiver and build it into a pistol without worrying about the shell casing.

 

[Inigoes]

I just wanted to know if it would need to be registered as an SBR if the barrels were shorter than 16".

That's a problem.

Rifles need to have a barrel of 16 inches or longer.

If it was chopped, then the ATF approval was required to chop it.

 

[mvee]

I don't believe it matters what size the barrel is if it is built on a virgin receiver, that has never-ever-ever had a butt-stock on it. You can go less than 16". Also I see that the chargers have a bipod on them but if you install a vertical foregrip some say that constitutes a AOW in the eyes of the ATF.

I am no lawyer....

 

[Inigoes]

I don't believe it matters what size the barrel is if it is built on a virgin receiver

It all depends what was on the 4473, a true virgin would have the "other" check box checked.

 

[hailtoby]

That's a problem.

Rifles need to have a barrel of 16 inches or longer.

If it was chopped, then the ATF approval was required to chop it.

So then, your opinion is that a tripod mounted gun, with no stock or other way to shoulder, is a rifle?

 

[Inigoes]

So then, your opinion is that a tripod mounted gun, with no stock or other way to shoulder, is a rifle?

You're misunderstanding.

What does the 4473 have to say?

 

[hailtoby]

You're misunderstanding.

What does the 4473 have to say?

Since it would be a virgin receiver, it could say what I wanted it to, right?

In that case pistol.

Is adding a tripod and a hand crank to a pistol similar to adding a foregrip or a rifle stock?

 

[Inigoes]

Since it would be a virgin receiver, it could say what I wanted it to, right?

If it was virgin, there are three choices: Rifle, Pistol, or other.

The FFL would have to check other, if you can't decide when filling out the paperwork. Then you can legally build a rifle, or a pistol.

 

[hailtoby]

Thanks for the input guys.

 

[Markp]

Please chime in on the below hypothetical.

-Virgin receiver, no stock, never had a stock installed.
-Mounted on a tripod.
-<16" barrel.

Would that be an SBR or a pistol or something else?

Would caliber matter?

Another way to ask the question is, "What happens when you cant hold a "pistol" and need something other than a stock to support it?"

What about a gatling gun reproduction? Is that a rifle since it doesnt have a stock?

A virgin receiver with no stock on a tripod and a barrel under 16" is a "firearm" for purposes of 18 USC 922 but not for 26 USC 5845, however the overall length must be greater than 18" not to fall into the AOW class.

26 USC 5845(e) Any other weapon
The term “any other weapon” means any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.

Good luck

Mark

 

[hailtoby]

A virgin receiver with no stock on a tripod and a barrel under 16" is a "firearm" for purposes of 18 USC 922 but not for 26 USC 5845, however the overall length must be greater than 18" not to fall into the AOW class.

26 USC 5845(e) Any other weapon
The term “any other weapon” means any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.

Good luck

Mark

Thats exactly what I was looking for. Thanks Mark.

 

[Markp]

hailtoby.....

from a legal standpoint, since you are in MD, the pistol part is a problem because AR pistols are assault weapons and NOT on the MD roster.

You could not be more wrong.

10/22 CHARGER receiver is a pistol in MD and is on the list. Also would need a fired shell case and internal lock....(how do ya do that in MD with a virgin PISTOL receiver?) I had this conundrum with pistol frames.....because of my second "job" I just built the frame with spare parts, slapped a series 70 slide I had laying around on it, the 07 fired the shell case, and he put an Omega lock in it for me....

It's transferred as other on the 4473, it is NOT an assault weapon (regulated firearm) per MD law, and thus a form 77R is NOT required, but if you do a form 77R you transfer it as OTHER. It's not a pistol without a barrel and it's not a rifle without a stock, period.

As for gatling guns (the MANUALLY cranked kind), they are regulated as rifles because a hand crank is not a machine gun, it just lets you pull the trigger faster. I've seen a couple repro guns in 45-70 that are beautiful. also go to shoot a real colt some years back.....its a lot harder than you think, especially when they get dirty!

Rather Gatling guns are "Not Regulated". Yes, they can be transferred across state lines on a 4473 like any other firearm.