SBS question

[WASKIS]

Did a quick search, but didn't find what I was looking for - hoping someone can answer this for me.

I have a Mossberg 500, with a birds head grip. I want to be able to put a 14" barrel on it...making to total length of the gun 26.5 inches.

Is this legal without an HQL? Also, does anyone know a good place to find a 14" barrel if legal?

 

[SneakySh0rty]

Short answer: Yes it is legal without an HQL, BUT you need an approved form 1 from the ATF before you do such a thing.

 

[WASKIS]

Is that something that's difficult to come by?

Or would the easiest way be for me to get an HQL?

just trying to find the best legal way to do it...always wanted one.

 

[SneakySh0rty]

getting an HQL will have no effect on creating a Short Barreled Shotgun. SBS are NFA items. Therefore you need to ask permission from the ATF via a form 1 to make one. There is a sub thread about everything NFA. Read through threads and itll help clear up some of your questions.
http://www.mdshooters.com/forumdisplay.php?f=105

 

[WASKIS]

...lol that's a lot more work that I had anticipated. Thanks for the info.

 

[erwos]

Well... wait a second. Did this start as a stocked shotgun, or a pistol-grip-only shotgun?

What you're describing is very similar to what Scott's sells, which is not an NFA firearm:
http://mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=147333

... but I think you need to start off with a gun that never had a stock.

 

[SneakySh0rty]

Well... wait a second. Did this start as a stocked shotgun, or a pistol-grip-only shotgun?

What you're describing is very similar to what Scott's sells, which is not an NFA firearm:
http://mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=147333

... but I think you need to start off with a gun that never had a stock.

You beat me to it, I was going to show him this as well. But, I wasnt sure if that applied to his circumstance. His is starting off as a shotgun. I believe Scott's started of as a receiver, which is made into a handgun by the buyer.

Just for more info, here is the advisory from MSP about SBS: https://www.mdsp.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=oaD6AUPKi0U=&tabid=961&mid=2923

Edit: The one Scott's list for sale states:

-Type of Firearm: OTHER (Per FEDERAL LAW this Firearm is NOT a Rifle, Shotgun, Handgun, or N.F.A Device. Per Maryland Law it is a HANDGUN once assembled)

Im going to assume the OPs mossberg 500 is listed as "shotgun". Therefore any shorter barrel makes it a SBS and under ATFs purview.

 

[WASKIS]

So long story short, this shotgun was given to me with a pistol grip as a gift from a relative when I lived in NJ. I have never registered it but did have a shotgun permit when I was a resident there. It was found in the house of a relative after they had passed away...never been fired.

I believe I still have the booklet that originally came with it and it was sold with a pistol grip.

 

[Rack&Roll]

This is gonna get interesting....

Yes, there may be a pathway for you to have 14" barrel pistol grip firearm without being on the Federal registry. It will depend on documents.

The NFA stars need to weigh in on this though...

 

[SneakySh0rty]

I guess im missing what the confusion is about. In this particular case I dont see how documents or whether or not a pistol grip/stock would give him any other alternative to a SBS. What he is trying to do is not the same as the Urban Broom.

 

[Rack&Roll]

The "Scott's Special" depended on being born as an "OTHER" on the Federal NICS check. The WASKIS firearm looks to have started life with a pistol grip (according to a receipt), but almost certainly predated a NICS check--when the firearms like this were sold over the counter at the hardware store.

Like I said, gonna be interesting...

 

[WASKIS]

Yeah, apparently this was bought for the Y2K scare. When we moved his couch we found a ton of guns and ammo stashed away.

 

[SneakySh0rty]

If bought for the Y2k scare, I dont think that predates NICS? So im still confused what the confusion is about.

 

[erwos]

It's not clear to me that the NICS check really matters to the BATFE when it comes to assessing legality. Presumably, they would be able to check with Mossberg to see what the original factory configuration was.

 

[Pinecone]

Any other weapon (AOW)
Firearms meeting the definition of "any other weapon" or AOW are weapons or devices capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive. Many AOWs are disguised devices such as pens, cigarette lighters, knives, cane guns and umbrella guns. AOWs can be pistols and revolvers having smooth bore barrels designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell. While the above weapons are similar in appearance to weapons made from shotguns, they were originally manufactured in the illustrated configuration[clarification needed] and are not modified from existing shotguns. As a result, these weapons do not fit within the definition of shotgun or weapons made from a shotgun.

The AOW definition includes specifically described weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more but less than 18 inches in length from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading.

In 1938 Congress recognized that the Marble Game Getter, a short .22/.410 sporting firearm, had "legitimate use" and did not deserve the stigma of a "gangster weapon" and reduced the $200 tax to one dollar for the Game Getter. In 1960 Congress changed the transfer tax for all AOW category firearms to $5. The transfer tax for machine guns, silencers, SBR and SBS remained at $200.[8]

Maybe a pistol according to MD, but not according to BATFE.

AOW

But only a $5 transfer tax.

Also from BATFE page:

Smooth Bore, Shot-Pistol

Smooth Bore, Shot-Pistol
Notice: All “Any Other Weapons” have a mandatory tax of $200.00 for making. Transfer of an “Any Other Weapons” is an additional $5.00.

Classification
Any Other Weapon
Distinctive Characteristics
A pistol having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire shot shells.

Rate of Transfer Tax
$5.00

http://www.atf.gov/files/firearms/guides/identification-of-nfa-firearms.html#smooth-bore-shot-pistol

Oh, BTW, the AOW has a $200 tax to MAKE one. So selling the parts to assemble a shot pistol, means the person who puts it together, should file the proper paperwork with BATFE and pay the tax.

 

[erwos]

You are incorrect. The weapon described is NOT an AOW because the BATFE has ruled that weapons > 26" OAL are not concealable.

 

[Rack&Roll]

The NICS check was instituted in 1998 so if it was bought for Y2K it was likely bought in 1999 when the "crash" fears really started to circulate.

If that's the case it was likely sold as a shotgun, not an "other" and WASKIS has to decide how much paperwork and registry he wants to deal with to have a pistol grip handgun (or SBS as noted by Sneaky).

Probably safer to purchase something like a "Scott's Special" which has the FFL originated paper trail, or purchase an SBS as an AOW for the overwhelming cost of $5 for the Tax Stamp.

 

[SneakySh0rty]

If that's the case it was likely sold as a shotgun, not an "other" and WASKIS has to decide how much paperwork and registry he wants to deal with to have SBS

FIFY.

Edit: At this point semantics. Just remembered MSP considers SBS as handguns

 

[Rack&Roll]

yup

 

[WASKIS]

Just by going off what is being said on Scott's website...it looks like as long as I can prove this was built with the pistol grip originally years back, I should be able to add the 14 inch barrel, as long as I do it in my own home and do not plan to sell it. The overall length including birds head grip will bring it to 26.5 inches which will make it legal in MD.

but I would need an HQL to possess, correct?