Sharps vs. High Wall?

[MattTheGunslinger]

So after my last purchase, a Uberti/Wincehster 1873, I have the itch for another old school, big bore rifle. This time a 45-70. I have narrowed it down to a Sharps or a High Wall. Each model I am looking at has a 32" octagon barrel, case hardened frame, and standard sights. There is about a $300 difference between the two rifles. Are there any significant advantages or draw backs to either rifle that should sway me one way or the other? I like the looks of each one but the Sharps in my opinion is a little cooler, thanks to Quigley Down Under. I just dont know if its $300 cooler.

 

[Bolts Rock]

Which specific models? Post links. Stock styles make a huge difference in shootability. The Quigley style stock is classic and pretty and absolutely brutal to shoot.

The High Wall is a little stronger, not an issue because both get loaded to Trapdoor safe levels and no higher!

You can do your own work on the Sharps if needed but the High Wall is one of Browning's most puzzle like guns and every forum tells you if you need action work find a GOOD gunsmith that knows the action. You probably won't even find a you tube video on stripping the High Wall, ask me how I know.

I have a Sharps in .45-70 and High Walls in .38-55 and .45 Colt. All are accurate but the High Walls are easier to shoot offhand. Both types benefit greatly from tang rear and globe front sights, I prefer Soule type rear sights. Be prepared to dump some serious money on sights, Lee Shaver is the best bang for the buck there.

If you're going to shoot black powder cartridge the Sharps is easier to detail clean as there is only a pin holding the block and lever in place so you can scrub out the action easily.

I also have a Low Wall with 3X Malcolm scope in .22lr. Hitting a 6"x12" plate at 200 yards is a piece of cake.

 

[MattTheGunslinger]

https://taylorsfirearms.com/catalog...-70-32-octagonal-schnabel-forend/category/62/

https://taylorsfirearms.com/catalog...-stock-single-trigger-model-203c/category/63/

Thanks for the reply. I wasn't aware that these modern reproductions had to use low pressure rounds. I assumed standard pressure would have been fine. I would most likely wait a good while before deciding on getting a fancy sight or not. At the moment I don't plan on nor do I have the space to shoot long distance. I think 100 yards and under will work for me. What makes the High Wall easier to shoot off hand?

 

[Biggfoot44]

Answer #1 - SAAMI level loads may well provide all the excitement you care for .

Answer #2 - Even in modern mfg , the Sharpes design is inherently intended for SAAMI levels .

Answer #3 - You'll have to consult Chiappa as to their recomendations . In the Browning B78 , will handle Ruger #1 level loads .

 

[MattTheGunslinger]

Answer #1 - SAAMI level loads may well provide all the excitement you care for .

Answer #2 - Even in modern mfg , the Sharpes design is inherently intended for SAAMI levels .

Answer #3 - You'll have to consult Chiappa as to their recomendations . In the Browning B78 , will handle Ruger #1 level loads .

I wouldn’t mess with any high pressure ammo in any of my guns. The load data I found has three separate section for 45-70.

Low pressure/Springfield Trapdoor @ 19,000PSI
Standard pressure @ 28,000PSI
High pressure @ 40,000PSI

Was I wrong to assume the low pressure/trapdoor pressure was for original period rifles and standard is ok for modern reproduction? Again, not messing with high pressure loads.

 

[Bertfish]

I love my Pedersoli sharps carbine

 

[Biggfoot44]

Yes , you were mistaken .

The Three Tiers of .45-70 Data are actually Standard , High , and REALLY High .

 

[MattTheGunslinger]

Oh good grief. So the low 19,000psi is actually standard and the standard 28,000 psi is high so I should stick with the low/standard/19,000psi reloading data for modern 1874 and 1885 reproductions...... I’m starting to confuse myself.

I guess the 28,000 and up loads are for modern guns like the Henry’s and Marlins?

Thanks for the info by the way. I’m new to the Uberti reproductions and have a lot of stupid questions.

 

[Biggfoot44]

The 28,000 was originally for ( post 1902-ish Nickle Steel bbl ) M 1886 Winchesters . The modern era Marlin M1895 turned out to be similar strength .

 

[Horseman308]

I've got a Pedersoli Sharps in .45-70, and I've shot both regular Hi-Walls and a Stevens 44 1/2, which is kind of a Hi-Wall derivative. The biggest differences to me have to do with the hammer. The Sharps, having a bigger, heavier hammer that is side-mounted will have a slight slower lock time than the smaller, lighter hammer fall of the Hi-Wall. That said, I doubt you'll notice much difference unless you shoot competitively.

The Pedersoli is said to have a match grade barrel from the factory. Mine has a 30" heavy barrel. I can't personally vouch for that, but it is a great rifle. I love mine very much. The Hi-Wall will probably be a little lighter to shoot off-hand, but these were really meant for shooting off cross sticks at several hundred yards. The Pedersoli will weigh a good bit more. If you're looking at the Uberti Hi-Wall, it has a lighter weight barrel.

As for loads, the Pedersoli has a 1/16" twist i believe and likes heavy bullets > over 400 grains for longer ranges. I've loaded mostly black powder loads - 65g of 3f black powder and a 520g bullet. Ive had some short range success (under 150 yards) with a 300g bullet and something like 35g of IMR 4198, but don't quote me on that. What you're looking for is about 1200 fps. Trust me, there is NO need for a rhinoceros-killing load.

Yes, the Sharps is an inherently weaker design than the Hi-Wall, but plenty of national level competitors in BPCR shooting use a Sharps. Lee Shaver makes great sights for the money. I have his shorter "economy Soule" sight and it's everything I need out to 500 yards.

At the end, I you have to look at what kind of shooting you're likely to be doing. The Sharps rifles made today, in general, tend to be more suited to longer range shooting out of the box (talking about the Italian made repros), but that is a generalization. But if you're talking about American made custom jobs like Shiloh, C Sharps, CPA and the like, then you can pretty much have anything you want!

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

 

[MattTheGunslinger]

Ok. I think I have decided on the High Wall. Price being a big factor. I wouldn't mind getting one of those Shiloh Sharps one day though. I also just found a video with Hickok45 with the exact rifle I want and I'm hooked. That man sells me more guns to me than anyone I think, lol. Since I plan on hunting with this rifle, I believe I will like the slightly lighter High Wall better. Nearly all of my shots taken while hunting have been under 100yds. I would like to try long range with this rifle though. That would be pretty awesome. After saving up for the High Wall, my plan is to buy factory loads first, then working my way into reloading. I will be sticking to lead cast bullets. Something about using plated or jacketed rounds in these old style guns just doesnt seem right.

 

[Bolts Rock]

https://taylorsfirearms.com/catalog...-70-32-octagonal-schnabel-forend/category/62/

https://taylorsfirearms.com/catalog...-stock-single-trigger-model-203c/category/63/

Thanks for the reply. I wasn't aware that these modern reproductions had to use low pressure rounds. I assumed standard pressure would have been fine. I would most likely wait a good while before deciding on getting a fancy sight or not. At the moment I don't plan on nor do I have the space to shoot long distance. I think 100 yards and under will work for me. What makes the High Wall easier to shoot off hand?

For pretty the models you posted have nice looking stocks but not so much fun to shoot. I'd suggest the following instead.

https://taylorsfirearms.com/catalog.../1885-high-wall-classic-32-45-70/category/63/

https://www.davide-pedersoli.com/sc...ifles-1874-sharps-rifle-1874-sharps-boss.html

https://www.davide-pedersoli.com/sc...es-1874-sharps-rifle-1874-sharps-buffalo.html

https://www.davide-pedersoli.com/sc...s-1874-sharps-rifle-1874-sharps-business.html

https://www.davide-pedersoli.com/sc...-sharps-sharps-1877-overbaugh-long-range.html

The ones you selected have crescent buttplates, thinner butt and lower combs. After 10 rounds or so they get truly unpleasant and the only rifle to ever bruise my shoulder. Look for the shotgun style buttplates, the butt is almost 1/4" thicker and higher comb; much more pleasant to shoot.

Of course they're going be lower pressure guns, they are based on BP designs. No big deal, guys are shooting BP cartridges to 1000 yards and beyond from these things.

 

[MattTheGunslinger]

For pretty the models you posted have nice looking stocks but not so much fun to shoot. I'd suggest the following instead.

https://taylorsfirearms.com/catalog.../1885-high-wall-classic-32-45-70/category/63/

https://www.davide-pedersoli.com/sc...ifles-1874-sharps-rifle-1874-sharps-boss.html

https://www.davide-pedersoli.com/sc...es-1874-sharps-rifle-1874-sharps-buffalo.html

https://www.davide-pedersoli.com/sc...s-1874-sharps-rifle-1874-sharps-business.html

https://www.davide-pedersoli.com/sc...-sharps-sharps-1877-overbaugh-long-range.html

The ones you selected have crescent buttplates, thinner butt and lower combs. After 10 rounds or so they get truly unpleasant and the only rifle to ever bruise my shoulder. Look for the shotgun style buttplates, the butt is almost 1/4" thicker and higher comb; much more pleasant to shoot.

Of course they're going be lower pressure guns, they are based on BP designs. No big deal, guys are shooting BP cartridges to 1000 yards and beyond from these things.

Well dang. More options! I like the looks of the Sharps Boss and Sharps Business. The prices seem comparable to the Uberti models too. I don't care too much for pistol grips on my rifles. Thanks for the links. This may come down to which ever rifle I see first in a shop while I have the money in my pocket.

 

[Bolts Rock]

Answer #1 - SAAMI level loads may well provide all the excitement you care for .

Answer #2 - Even in modern mfg , the Sharpes design is inherently intended for SAAMI levels .

Answer #3 - You'll have to consult Chiappa as to their recomendations . In the Browning B78 , will handle Ruger #1 level loads .

Taylor's specifically says for the Sharps not to exceed the BP pressure of 19,000. Scroll down to find it.
https://taylorsfirearms.com/media/site/taylors_sharps_manual.pdf

Chiappa is less clear but implies BP pressures only. "Loading a Sharps cartridge model: Cartridge Sharps means a rifle using metal cartridges with primer commonly on sale. That being stated, it’s good to remind that such guns were produced as copies of percussion Sharps that we have previously described. These rifles were copies of those designed for use with black powder or Pyrodex or other shooting powders approved to substitute black powder. Cartridges with different powders may be employed only if they have bursting pressures absolutely equal to that of black powder. The guarantee is not valid in case commercial cartridge cases are used, which have been self-reloaded with powders that are not permitted."

Pedersoli does have a table of acceptable pressures for various rounds in their repros. Scroll down to find it.
https://taylorsfirearms.com/media/site/pedersoli_cartridge_gun_manual.pdf

I wouldn’t mess with any high pressure ammo in any of my guns. The load data I found has three separate section for 45-70.

Low pressure/Springfield Trapdoor @ 19,000PSI
Standard pressure @ 28,000PSI
High pressure @ 40,000PSI

Was I wrong to assume the low pressure/trapdoor pressure was for original period rifles and standard is ok for modern reproduction? Again, not messing with high pressure loads.

Follow what the manufacturer tells you.

Oh good grief. So the low 19,000psi is actually standard and the standard 28,000 psi is high so I should stick with the low/standard/19,000psi reloading data for modern 1874 and 1885 reproductions...... I’m starting to confuse myself.

I guess the 28,000 and up loads are for modern guns like the Henry’s and Marlins?

Thanks for the info by the way. I’m new to the Uberti reproductions and have a lot of stupid questions.

For either of these rifles I'd go with a Pedersoli over the Uberti. Be aware Taylor's, Cimarron, E.M.F. and such are just importers and any differences are usually cosmetic, the guts of a specific manufacturer's rifle importd by any of them is the same as the others.

 

[Bolts Rock]

Well dang. More options! I like the looks of the Sharps Boss and Sharps Business. The prices seem comparable to the Uberti models too. I don't care too much for pistol grips on my rifles. Thanks for the links. This may come down to which ever rifle I see first in a shop while I have the money in my pocket.

This should take you to a straight stock, shotgun butt High Wall.
https://www.uberti-usa.com/1885-high-wall-rifle

Browse Pedersoli's website, Uberti usa, gun broker, guns america, etc.

You're not likely to see one in a shop, best bet is decide what you want and have a shop order it for you.

 

[Horseman308]

Agreed. The only place I've seen Pedersoli Sharps in stock on a regular basis was at a Cabela's. I've seen exactly one Hi-Wall in a shop. I'd just cruise GB rip you find what you're looking for or order new. They're just not that common.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

 

[Bolts Rock]

Agreed. The only place I've seen Pedersoli Sharps in stock on a regular basis was at a Cabela's. I've seen exactly one Hi-Wall in a shop. I'd just cruise GB rip you find what you're looking for or order new. They're just not that common.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

Yup! Lucked into a Pedersoli Down Under Sharps at a gunshow for $1440 out the door. Ended up replacing the buttstock.

Found both my High Walls at cowboy shoots for stupid cheap.