Short Barrel AR Lower?

[zombiehunter]

Last I checked a lower is a lower is a lower. Even assuming it has an SBR stamp wouldn't the stamp need to be paid again when xfered?

Here's the story:

Sitting around having a few beers yesterday and I'm slowly convincing my buddy to start getting into ARs and building his own. I start talking about how awesome my new $50 Double Star lower is going to be and he tell me he saw a $700 (no that is NOT a typo) AR lower at *wait for it* Select Fire. He asked the guy why it was so much and the guy says "because it's for a short barrel AR."

That struck me as odd since from what I know:

Provided you're not buying one of those really crappy lowers, they're all pretty much the same.
The only special ones are the 7.62x51 lowers.
SBR is just a stamp, and every subsequent owner needs to pay off the ATF anyway.

But I thought I'd ask here first before totally flaming the idiot at Select Fire.

 

[clandestine]

Last I checked a lower is a lower is a lower. Even assuming it has an SBR stamp wouldn't the stamp need to be paid again when xfered?

Here's the story:

Sitting around having a few beers yesterday and I'm slowly convincing my buddy to start getting into ARs and building his own. I start talking about how awesome my new $50 Double Star lower is going to be and he tell me he saw a $700 (no that is NOT a typo) AR lower at *wait for it* Select Fire. He asked the guy why it was so much and the guy says "because it's for a short barrel AR."

That struck me as odd since from what I know:

Provided you're not buying one of those really crappy lowers, they're all pretty much the same.
The only special ones are the 7.62x51 lowers.
SBR is just a stamp, and every subsequent owner needs to pay off the ATF anyway.

But I thought I'd ask here first before totally flaming the idiot at Select Fire.

The Stamp would Run $200.

For example:

If it was a POF .223/5.56 lower they command a high price ($325 Forged and Milled, and have an Ambi Bolt Release), its possible it had a nice trigger such a Jard ($150), Ambi Dafety Runs $30, Heavy Buffer and Magpul ACS Stock ($135), MAID Pistol Grip $45, Milspec Buffer Tube runs $50, 9MM Buffer Runs $30, and the remaining arts to bulld it would be $50

Total would be $1015, I easily have this much into my AR lowers so it depends on what kind of lower and whats inside of the lower.

 

[CKOD]

If its just whatever stripped lower, then I wouldn't pay any more for a SBRed lower then I would the title I reciever, since you could do it on your own for the same cost, and I doubt anyone is gonna strip a colt, RRA, Noveske, etc.. factory SBR to just the reciever.

If its a built lower, it'd depend on whats engraved on it. A factory SBR, wouldnt have any extra engraving, just the standard MFR, city, state, serial number, caliber. Would be worth around what you would pay for the title I version, maybe a tad more, but nothing crazy.

A converted one would have both the manufacturer (of the reciever) and the maker (of the SBR) on it. I'd not want to pay much more then the title I price, except if maybe it was converted by a good/known shop.

You can still make more, its not like a machine gun, so all it is, is the sum of its parts.

 

[zombiehunter]

If its just whatever stripped lower, then I wouldn't pay any more for a SBRed lower then I would the title I reciever, since you could do it on your own for the same cost, and I doubt anyone is gonna strip a colt, RRA, Noveske, etc.. factory SBR to just the reciever.

If its a built lower, it'd depend on whats engraved on it. A factory SBR, wouldnt have any extra engraving, just the standard MFR, city, state, serial number, caliber. Would be worth around what you would pay for the title I version, maybe a tad more, but nothing crazy.

A converted one would have both the manufacturer (of the reciever) and the maker (of the SBR) on it. I'd not want to pay much more then the title I price, except if maybe it was converted by a good/known shop.

You can still make more, its not like a machine gun, so all it is, is the sum of its parts.

I'm still confused.

It was explained to me as a stripped SBR lower. What does title I mean? How does one convert a lower to SBR? I thought it was just the upper that was short?

 

[Eudaimonia]

Even though an SBR depends on barrel length and the barrel is part of an upper, the upper is not the part that is considered the firearm.

It is just like how you can only buy a single lower every 30 days in Maryland, but there isn't a limit on uppers. Or how you need to go to a dealer to by a lower, but you can have an upper shipped to your door.

Title I of the US federal firearms laws is the Gun Control Act of 1968. Title II is the National Firearms Act of 1934. Title I covers normal guns and Title II defines NFA.

 

[zombiehunter]

OK let's see if I have this right:

Currently there's a $700 stripped lower. He's saying there's a $200 tax stamp on it already. There is no design difference between a SBR lower and the lower I just bought from PDI. When he sells the $700 lower whoever buys it is going to need to buy another $200 stamp.

So basically he's trying to rip off some poor shlub?

 

[06MegaCTD]

your not paying the tax stamp for the lower, the tax stamp is for the barrel being shorter than 16 inches. The lower doesn't make a damn bit of difference as long as it is engraved before you attach your SBR upper to it. I have never seen anything saying NFA next to it when buying a lower, but sure as shit see it on all the 10.5, 11.5, 12.5 uppers i see for sale. So in my opinion that guy is ripping someone off. If you are to buy that, you are still going to have to have a 200 dollar tax stamp to buy the upper to attach to it so 400 dollars in tax stamps for 1 sbr, i don't think so. He is ripping someone off big time.

 

[06MegaCTD]

i think i might swing by this place and have a talk with the owner for being a dumbass

 

[zombiehunter]

i think i might swing by this place and have a talk with the owner for being a dumbass

Lol, good luck. Also it's 2% possible it's like Clandestine said and it's not a stripped lower and has a butt load of high end parts in it. I haven't been by but may just to laugh at the guy. Keep in mind this is the same guy who was selling lowers for $350 b'c "they were easier to cut out to make full auto".

 

[boatbiologist]

stripped lower? already registered and engraved? Registered in MD?

IF the engraving/ whom it was registered to was a celebrity like... umm, Ronald Reagan, 1600 Penn Ave, well then $700 as a colector piece maybe.

Since anyone can sbr themselves, paying anything more than going rate for the lower + maybe $50 to engrave would be throwing money away.

I don't need another reason to dislike select-fire. They are still in business? WTF?

 

[SCARCQB]

OK let's see if I have this right:

Currently there's a $700 stripped lower. He's saying there's a $200 tax stamp on it already. There is no design difference between a SBR lower and the lower I just bought from PDI. When he sells the $700 lower whoever buys it is going to need to buy another $200 stamp.

So basically he's trying to rip off some poor shlub?

The $700.00 for a stripped SBR lower is a bit high but not unreasonable.
especially If it were a Colt or some other premium brand.

An Stripped SBR lower simply means that this particular receiver has been thru all the required paperwork and has been classified / documented by the BATFE as Registered SBR.( It is entered into the NFA registry) To transfer it only requires the standard form 3 ( dealer to dealer) or form 4 ( Dealer to civilian purchaser)

You can make your own registered sbr lower but that requires some additional steps in addition to just paying a 200.00 stamp. Form 1, fingerprints, cjis cards, MSP- Cleo sign off, waiting, engraving, waiting --- more waiting.

It takes an average of :
200.00 tax stamp
18.00 MSP/CJIS
10.00 Regulated MSP fee
15.00 Prints
24.00 pictures
10.00 postage
40.00 Gas
?????? Your time/ day off to process paperwork
100.00 engraving ( your info/ refinishing)

$417.oo Subtotal ( not including the value of your time)
235.00 Standard Milspec AR lower, taxes, fees out the door

$652.00 dollars( To do it yourself)

To convert a standard receiver into a registered SBR. You still save about 300.00 bucks if you do it yourself but that savings is offset by the amount of time it takes to process paperwork. If you purchase the SBR lower at 700.00, you still have to pay the $200.00 stamp and all the misc fees , that put that lower at about 975.00 bucks instead of around 650.00 if you do it yourself. NFA is an expensive hobby.... every dollar you save allows you to buy more stuff. LOL

 

[06MegaCTD]

am i just confused here, it doesn't cost anything but the cost of engraving to make a lower a SBR lower, thats why when you send out your paperwork they say go ahead and send out the lower to get engraved. Its the upper you need to tax stamp for. So again if you are to buy that lower i don't see how you can automatically have the right to buy the 10.5 inch upper just because you own that lower that is engraved. To buy a SBR upper you would have to go thru all the paperwork and 7-9 month wait for your 200 dollar tax stamp to be able to own the upper correct. Am i lost here or wrong, hell i can go right now and label my lower with my name for a trust for SBR, doesnt mean i can put a SBR upper on it until i have the tax stamp for it.

 

[06MegaCTD]

Also that would be like if someone was selling a full lower and upper SBR that they have at a shop ready to go, that means they had the tax stamp to make it but sure as hell can't just transfer for extra money the tax stamp, the person that bought it would have to go thru all the paperwork themselves again to get the tax stamp, you cant just buy a tax stamp.

 

[FIREHAWK]

you can buy an nfa upper without a tax stamp, just don't put it on a unregistered lower. the lower is what gets the stamp. you can have several nfa uppers for one lower.

 

[alucard0822]

your not paying the tax stamp for the lower, the tax stamp is for the barrel being shorter than 16 inches. The lower doesn't make a damn bit of difference as long as it is engraved before you attach your SBR upper to it. I have never seen anything saying NFA next to it when buying a lower, but sure as shit see it on all the 10.5, 11.5, 12.5 uppers i see for sale. So in my opinion that guy is ripping someone off. If you are to buy that, you are still going to have to have a 200 dollar tax stamp to buy the upper to attach to it so 400 dollars in tax stamps for 1 sbr, i don't think so. He is ripping someone off big time.

Not the case. The lower is the "firearm", weither it is a pistol, rifle, SBR or AOW, and would need the $200 stamp to transfer it to an individual or title I FFL if it is declared an NFA device. Although as SCARCQB said, you can always just buy a plain lower, build it, shoot it(with a 16+ inch upper and stock as a rifle, or without a stock and vfg(with a VFG on a pistol you have an AOW), but with a short barrel as a pistol where legal), get it engraved, and go through the process to get the stamp for it, once you get the stamp, then you can legally add a stock to an AR pistol, or throw a short upper onto a rifle. The only problem you have with posessing a short upper and built lower with a stock is called "constructive intent", where you have parts the ATF could claim are to be used to construct an NFA device without first possessing the proper stamp. However once the lower is bought and transferred as an SBR, or you get it engraved, and go through the steps to declare it an SBR, there is no limit on the uppers you can buy, they are not "firearms" SBRs or anything else, and do not require a stamp. However, most vendors want to make sure you do not end up running afoul of "constructive intent" though, and want a copy of the NFA paperwork, or paperwork that you have an AR pistol before they will sell you an upper >16". The only way to really have multiple tax stamps on a single weapon is when you combine seperate NFA devices, an SBR with a suppressor would have 2, an SBR with a registered autosear, and a suppressor would have 3. Plain and simple, NFA is like many gun control laws, stupid, overly complcated and written out of ignorance, mostly to make it so difficult to buy one that eple wouldn't bother. Most of the AOW, SBR and SBS stuff was in there originally to prevent someone from legally turning a rifle into a pistol, where handguns were originally part of the NFA regulation, and removed before the final version of the unconstitutional BS passed.

As far as the OP goes, I would not put it past select fire to lie cheat and steal, assuming it was not already assembled, and was a stripped lower only, the lower could have already been declared an SBR, could have been a plain lower with an "NFA package" where $700 included the cost of engraving and the stamp, or it could have just been a plain lower, and the guy is hoping someone takes the bait, and buys an excessively overpriced lower because they buy the story and think it is special when it isn't. That shop is shady enough it is hard to tell what it actually is.

 

[SCARCQB]

You cant own or possess an upper that is less than 16" unless you have a registered SBR lower or machinegun . That is simply illegal. The tax is for the lower, not the upper. It is the lower receiver that is registered, not the upper.

The only difference between a standard lower and an SBR lower is that a Registered SBR lower is an NFA item. It attained that classification by having it entered by the BATFE into the NFA registry. That process takes a lot of time and money. Short cuts will only result in bad things. Do not mess with NFA stuff unless you are willing to do the paperwork correctly and meet all requirements. A single mistake makes you an instant criminal. So please be careful.

 

[SCARCQB]

you can buy an nfa upper without a tax stamp, just don't put it on a unregistered lower. the lower is what gets the stamp. you can have several nfa uppers for one lower.

Constructive intent... dont do it( unless you already have a registered SBR lower, AR15 pistols are not allowed in MD)

 

[SCARCQB]

your not paying the tax stamp for the lower, the tax stamp is for the barrel being shorter than 16 inches. The lower doesn't make a damn bit of difference as long as it is engraved before you attach your SBR upper to it. I have never seen anything saying NFA next to it when buying a lower, but sure as shit see it on all the 10.5, 11.5, 12.5 uppers i see for sale. So in my opinion that guy is ripping someone off. If you are to buy that, you are still going to have to have a 200 dollar tax stamp to buy the upper to attach to it so 400 dollars in tax stamps for 1 sbr, i don't think so. He is ripping someone off big time.

Forgive me for stating this...." You Are Wrong"

 

[mds213]

So I can't go less than 16

I have an a3 h-bar 16". Wanted to mod. ....Shit.
!

 

[SCARCQB]

The $200.00 tax stamp is for the following use:

FORM1: To manufacture a firearm

FORM4 : To transfer a NFA firearm

While the stamps look the same, cost the same, they are actually for diffrent purposes.
Example:
A registered AOW transfers for $5.00 bucks while to make an AOW / register it will cost $200.00
Everytime a NFA Item ( other than AOWs) changes hands, a $200.00 tax stamp is paid. Dealers and some agencies are excempt from this , but not individuals or personal trust/ Corporations/ LLCs.