Sig dropping 40sw/357sig

[m1carbine]

I think that the P99 in 40 S&W is probably similar to the original Glock 40 - that, and it's lightweight. I think that contributes to the snap.


I find the love affair folks have for the 10mm to be an interesting development, and I'm not sure why there is the belief that 9mm/45ACP is suddenly not enough gun. Then again, there are plenty of folks out there chomping on the bit to get their hands on a 500 S&W Magnum. I'm not one of them. I have a 44 Mag, and that's enough for me. (For that matter I also have a 41 magnum, and that out-performs the 10mm every day of the week in all aspects but capacity.)

The big issue with the 10mm and 45 is the grip size from a double-stack magazine being too large for persons with smaller hands to grip. Not having a good grip and higher recoil don't mix well.

That is why Glock produced the small frame versions and then the gen 4 & 5 modular grip sizes.

 

[Magnumite]

I find the love affair folks have for the 10mm to be an interesting development, and I'm not sure why there is the belief that 9mm/45ACP is suddenly not enough gun. Then again, there are plenty of folks out there chomping on the bit to get their hands on a 500 S&W Magnum. I'm not one of them. I have a 44 Mag, and that's enough for me. (For that matter I also have a 41 magnum, and that out-performs the 10mm every day of the week in all aspects but capacity.)

I am inclined to agree. Basically because one can. The surge in 10mm popularity for defense is akin to the times when the 44 Magnum was the ‘real’ gun for self defense. Took awhile but it was determined there were better antipersonnel guns and cartridges.

For defensive purposes the 10mm is akin to the 44 Magnum in application. Too much recoil, slower followup shots, less than possible terminal ballistics, over penetration, and rougher on the shooter (and gun). I have a 5.5” Redhawk I bought new I am very proficient with. There must be over 20k rounds through that 44 Magnum. Half the loads minimum are full house to brutal loads. But for defense against anything that isn’t big, furry, armed with claws and big teeth, I wouldn’t chose it using full bore loads. And if loaded down, then a different handgun and caliber are in order.

 

[trickg]

The big issue with the 10mm and 45 is the grip size from a double-stack magazine being too large for persons with smaller hands to grip. Not having a good grip and higher recoil don't mix well.

That is why Glock produced the small frame versions and then the gen 4 & 5 modular grip sizes.

It seems to me then that rather than trying to force the issue with the larger caliber, the best option would be to find the gun/cartridge combination that actually fits your hand, then work on shooting mechanics for good shot placement.

 

[m1carbine]

It seems to me then that rather than trying to force the issue with the larger caliber, the best option would be to find the gun/cartridge combination that actually fits your hand, then work on shooting mechanics for good shot placement.

That is the best option, but many newer shooters just buy on the perceived reputation, like military or police usage.

Perception plays a big role, just look at the patterns of police departments following the FBI.

 

[alucard0822]

I think that the P99 in 40 S&W is probably similar to the original Glock 40 - that, and it's lightweight. I think that contributes to the snap.


I find the love affair folks have for the 10mm to be an interesting development, and I'm not sure why there is the belief that 9mm/45ACP is suddenly not enough gun. Then again, there are plenty of folks out there chomping on the bit to get their hands on a 500 S&W Magnum. I'm not one of them. I have a 44 Mag, and that's enough for me. (For that matter I also have a 41 magnum, and that out-performs the 10mm every day of the week in all aspects but capacity.)

I like 40 for one relatively specific purpose, mild 180gr loads in smaller pistols. Recoil and muzzle blast are soft, comparable to standard pressure 124gr 9mm, maybe a bit less blast. Really good performance, low pressure, many of the same things that keeps 230gr 45 popular, but in smaller 9mm frames without losing much capacity. Once you have more barrel length or larger mags, warm 124-147gr 9mm catches up in performance, gains more useable capacity, and can be the better choice.

10mm is another animal entirely, basically full power 357mag ballistics with heavy bullets in an autoloader frame, a wide range of power and increased capacity over 45ACP. Light loads can run at really mild pressures and for the size of the pistol can be softer shooting than even light 185gr 45acp. Heavy loads have enough power to take large game or reach out past 100 yards. Only real downside is the large primer, doesn't leave a lot of case head area to support the pressures the caliber can run at, and brass gets hammered quick with hot loads, a small primer would be a big improvement. 45 super is pretty awesome too, similar power to 10mm, but better to handload for, and works with minor or no changes to a 45ACP pistol.

 

[trickg]

10mm is another animal entirely, basically full power 357mag ballistics with heavy bullets in an autoloader frame, a wide range of power and increased capacity over 45ACP. Light loads can run at really mild pressures and for the size of the pistol can be softer shooting than even light 185gr 45acp. Heavy loads have enough power to take large game or reach out past 100 yards. Only real downside is the large primer, doesn't leave a lot of case head area to support the pressures the caliber can run at, and brass gets hammered quick with hot loads, a small primer would be a big improvement. 45 super is pretty awesome too, similar power to 10mm, but better to handload for, and works with minor or no changes to a 45ACP pistol.

How many people use that gun/cartridge for any of the reasons you listed - taking large game or reaching out past 100 yards? I think that 99.75% of 10mm pistols sold are probably sold for guys with the "Tim 'The Tool Man' Taylor" syndrome - MORE POWER ARRR ARRR ARRRRRR!"

I have a friend - younger kid who sees me as a mentor of sorts, he's about the age of my son - who bought his first 1911 - a Springfield 10mm. He also talks in delusions of grandeur about rifle build in 6.5 Grendel where he wants to be able to shoot out past 1500 yards, hence the reason he bought a high magnification Vortex scope, but I digress.

My thought is that given that the kid doesn't have a lot of extra spending cash and doesn't reload, he'd have been better off getting that 1911 in something a bit more common than 10mm so that he doesn't go broke trying to shoot it. If he'd picked 9mm or 45 ACP, I would have taught him how to reload and let him use my equipment. That way he could shoot more for his money. I suppose I could reload his 10mm too, but just getting a source of brass for 10mm is going to be expensive enough.

 

[Pinecone]

Funny how things go full circle.

10mm was picked by FBI because of failure of the carry guns in a gunfight.

But it is harsh and lots of recoil. So they load it lighter.

S&W figures out that the lighter load doesn't need the longer case, so developed the .40.

Now the .40 popularity is going down and 10mm up.

But my question is always, if 9mm bullet technology has made the 9 more effective, hasn't that same technology made the .40 and .45 also more effective? So they are still more effective than the 9.

 

[PeterT]

The primary reason for the popularity of the .40S&W was that the FBI adopted it after the Platt and Maddox shooting in Miami years ago. The FBI first try was the 10mm but that was found to be too large for agent carry and had excessive recoil. The .40 S&W was S&W's way to take currently produced 9mm and use the same basic handgun in a new caliber. Once the bureau adopted the .40S&W US law enforcement followed in lockstep. However, now that the FBI has returned to the 9mm, US law enforcement is moving away from the .40S&W.

 

[trickg]

Funny how things go full circle.

10mm was picked by FBI because of failure of the carry guns in a gunfight.

But it is harsh and lots of recoil. So they load it lighter.

S&W figures out that the lighter load doesn't need the longer case, so developed the .40.

Now the .40 popularity is going down and 10mm up.

But my question is always, if 9mm bullet technology has made the 9 more effective, hasn't that same technology made the .40 and .45 also more effective? So they are still more effective than the 9.

I see it as kind of unfortunate that Sig is going to discontinue producing for those cartridges - I guess I can understand the 40, but the .357 SIG seems like it's a superior cartridge in a number of ways. Still, what's effective on paper doesn't always translate to what's effective in reality, or what's effective in practical terms.

Well, no matter what, they aren't going away entirely - just because Sig doesn't want to make them anymore doesn't mean that everyone else won't keep rolling with it.

 

[PeterT]

Probably because you haven't been present when someone has been shot with it.

 

[trickg]

Probably because you haven't been present when someone has been shot with it.

Is this directed at me? What do you mean by "it?" We're talking about most of the normal suspects for semi-auto pistol cartridges:

9mm
40 S&W
357 SIG
10mm
45 ACP

I haven't been present when anyone has been shot with anything - I guess I'm just lucky or blessed.

 

[Snav]

It's always the Money, expensive cartridge. On the bright side, during shortage it's a bit more available.

 

[TheOriginalMexicanBob]

But my question is always, if 9mm bullet technology has made the 9 more effective, hasn't that same technology made the .40 and .45 also more effective? So they are still more effective than the 9.

There's always a series of compromises...and the FBI comes up with very specific characteristics for a caliber and handgun combination. Many other law enforcement agencies follow the FBI's lead whether those characteristics apply to them or not...because the FBI is the FBI and they have the money and ability to conduct testing and ammunition makers jump at the chance to brag about having the FBI contract. The same with handgun makers.

Characteristics include penetration...ability to penetrate barriers without deforming or changing trajectory...ability to still expand after a minimum amount of penetration...ease of training and not unimportantly...costs.

Not that the .40 doesn't benefit from the same technological improvements but it is more expensive...many handguns can carry more 9mm rounds than .40...it's easier to train recruits with the act least somewhat easier to control 9mm...the differences in terminal performance are probably negligible if the agent does his/her job and misses don't matter in that regard.

It's not an easy proposition deciding on a new caliber and pistol combination for any agency...for an individual it's a matter of what you want and can afford without political influence. I've always been an advocate for agencies having well thought out policies where an officer can...at his/her discretion...supply his own sidearm as long as it meets minimum calibers specifically spelled out and with official approval. But...with agencies so afraid of liability concerns they won't allow that.

Many, if not most, police agencies use the same caliber and brand of ammunition anyway...it's called "low bid".

 

[alucard0822]

How many people use that gun/cartridge for any of the reasons you listed - taking large game or reaching out past 100 yards? I think that 99.75% of 10mm pistols sold are probably sold for guys with the "Tim 'The Tool Man' Taylor" syndrome - MORE POWER ARRR ARRR ARRRRRR!"

I have a friend - younger kid who sees me as a mentor of sorts, he's about the age of my son - who bought his first 1911 - a Springfield 10mm. He also talks in delusions of grandeur about rifle build in 6.5 Grendel where he wants to be able to shoot out past 1500 yards, hence the reason he bought a high magnification Vortex scope, but I digress.

My thought is that given that the kid doesn't have a lot of extra spending cash and doesn't reload, he'd have been better off getting that 1911 in something a bit more common than 10mm so that he doesn't go broke trying to shoot it. If he'd picked 9mm or 45 ACP, I would have taught him how to reload and let him use my equipment. That way he could shoot more for his money. I suppose I could reload his 10mm too, but just getting a source of brass for 10mm is going to be expensive enough.

IMO 10mm is better than 45ACP in modern 1911s. An extra round capacity, wider range of performance from light 180s up to full power loads, and can be the same cost as 45acp, and cheaper if you reload. It can do all 45 can and more, if you want a 1911 that's cheaper to shoot, get it in 9mm.

 

[Pinecone]

I see it as kind of unfortunate that Sig is going to discontinue producing for those cartridges - I guess I can understand the 40, but the .357 SIG seems like it's a superior cartridge in a number of ways. Still, what's effective on paper doesn't always translate to what's effective in reality, or what's effective in practical terms.

Technical superiority or effectiveness does not always win.

In MANY areas.

And people tend to be sheep.

To start: Beta versus VHS.

Kindle versus most any other eReader

 

[Blaster229]

Probably because you haven't been present when someone has been shot with it.

You have apparently. Share it with the rest of the class.

 

[joppaj]

Perception plays a big role, just look at the patterns of police departments following the FBI.

Not sure I'd call that perception. Most police depts have no budget (nor facility) for research. The FBI is a VERY different animal. They have an extensive, well funded, well respected research capability. When I was buying some very specialized equipment for my agency, the first stop in our process was usually to see what the FBI was using and what they had tested.

 

[m1carbine]

Not sure I'd call that perception. Most police depts have no budget (nor facility) for research. The FBI is a VERY different animal. They have an extensive, well funded, well respected research capability. When I was buying some very specialized equipment for my agency, the first stop in our process was usually to see what the FBI was using and what they had tested.

I was not saying that police following the FBI is based on perception, but civilians that then do. Police departments taking advantage of the scientific analysis done by a federal agency is logical and expected. A police department and the FBI are going to have effectively the same application for the firearms.

Some civilians will base their purchases not on the intended usage but their perception of the firearm. It can be that it is used by a famous law enforcement agency like the FBI, that it was in a video game, or media press about it.

 

[Magnumite]

^^^. That may not be necessarily true. Like police departments, most civilians don’t have the resources to purchase, extensively test, then select pistols and cartridges. So they read, listen and select.

They may not select to their true needs giving into their wants. Which is cool...its a hobby. And a vote for us.

 

[m1carbine]

^^^. That may not be necessarily true. Like police departments, most civilians don’t have the resources to purchase, extensively test, then select pistols and cartridges. So they read, listen and select.

They may not select to their true needs giving into their wants. Which is cool...its a hobby. And a vote for us.

Magnumite, notice I said "Some civilians will base their purchases not on the intended usage but their perception of the firearm. It can be that it is used by a famous law enforcement agency like the FBI, that it was in a video game, or media press about it." I specifically said SOME civilians. Yes, there are those of us that take the time to learn about terminal ballistics and know enough to effectively evaluate a firearm for effectiveness to fulfill the intended role. But the majority do not, and subsequently purchase a firearm based on 2nd hand information gained from the resources available to them. Frequently now that is movies and video games. Even worse is the gun store guy looking to make an overpriced sale. Not everyone takes the time to read background information for days or weeks to make an informed decision.