Stupid C&R Question

[dapefley]

Well, after doing some research, I cannot find the answer to my question. Can a NON License holder, sell a C&R eligible revolver to a License holder?

Basically we are both MD residents, however, he does not have a C&R, but I do. I was under the assumption that he could sell to me if we went out of state, seeing as I am a C&R holder.

Any help would be appreciated, and Bonus points if you can point me in the direction to the answer on the ATF website.

 

[smokedog]

Regulated in Md and crossing state lines as a non-ffl is a no go.
I can't point you to the written law but a Pa. ffl could sell a C&R handgun to you if they transfer to them first. Check with a ffl close to the state line and see if they will handle it for you.
Just my thoughts on it.

 

[dapefley]

Ahh, gotcha. Thanks for answering my question.

 

[iH8DemLibz]

Go to Freedom Armory in PA.

 

[Claybreaker 2]

How would this situation be different if both parties were C&R holders and MD residents?

 

[dapefley]

Just step out of state, and make the sale, come back in state, and record in your bound book.

 

[JamesH]

Not to be "that guy", but you can also transfer it for $10 at an MSP barracks just like any other private-party handgun sale. No HQL needed for C&R, with or without an FFL03.

 

[wbw2123]

There is nothing to keep the owner from listing, selling, and shipping a c&r firearm to a licensed out of state buyer. The seller could also drive to another state and sell the pistol to an FFL but not to an unlicensed individual.

With your 03ffl you can buy c&r eligible firearms from anywhere in the country either face to face or shipped to you. So having said all that, what keeps an unlicensed person from selling a c&r eligible firearm to you while you are in another state?

As I understand it, federally, an unlicensed individual from Maryland selling you, an 03FFL, a c&r eligible firearm out of state is perfectly legal and the firearm would not enter the MD registry, which would be a plus in my mind.

However, there seems to be people who opine that transfers between residents of Maryland must happen in state and go through the regulated transfer process. I'm more worried about the Feds where there does not appear to be anything in the law stopping the transfer, but I also wouldnt want to be a Maryland test case.

 

[smokedog]

As I understand it, federally, an unlicensed individual from Maryland selling you, an 03FFL, a c&r eligible firearm out of state is perfectly legal and the firearm would not enter the MD registry, which would be a plus in my mind.


Can you show me where this would be legal?
I'm not sure I have seen this in the law and would be interested in reading how this is legal.

 

[sxs]

There is nothing to keep the owner from listing, selling, and shipping a c&r firearm to a licensed out of state buyer. The seller could also drive to another state and sell the pistol to an FFL but not to an unlicensed individual.

With your 03ffl you can buy c&r eligible firearms from anywhere in the country either face to face or shipped to you. So having said all that, what keeps an unlicensed person from selling a c&r eligible firearm to you while you are in another state?

As I understand it, federally, an unlicensed individual from Maryland selling you, an 03FFL, a c&r eligible firearm out of state is perfectly legal and the firearm would not enter the MD registry, which would be a plus in my mind.

However, there seems to be people who opine that transfers between residents of Maryland must happen in state and go through the regulated transfer process. I'm more worried about the Feds where there does not appear to be anything in the law stopping the transfer, but I also wouldnt want to be a Maryland test case.

First IANAL. That said, as I read the law, 2 MD residents should indeed be able to step out of the state to complete a C&R transaction. I see nothing explicitly prohibiting this practice. That said, the issue I have is that you would have another MD resident listed in your books and might need to prove the purchase occurred in another state. Yeah, yeah, burden of proof on the state and all that. However my pockets are not deep enough to warrant exposing myself legally as a test case. It costs just $10 to do a private transfer via MDSP with no ambiguity, so I just do it.

 

[rseymorejr]

Can you show me where this would be legal?
I'm not sure I have seen this in the law and would be interested in reading how this is legal.

That's not how it works.
Someone would have to find where it is illegal to do it. The law only tells what we can't do.

 

[Machodoc]

The law in VA says that two private parties can make a sale between them, so long as the seller has no reason to believe that the buyer is not allowed to own a firearm. It doesn't say that they have to be VA residents.

 

[Dave91]

Not to be "that guy", but you can also transfer it for $10 at an MSP barracks just like any other private-party handgun sale. No HQL needed for C&R, with or without an FFL03.

This is the only answer that needs to be said in this thread (and every thread that pops up asking this same question every couple months). Sure there appears to be loopholes, but do you want to be the one whose neck it finally closes on? Just to avoid $10 and 20 minutes of your time at an MSP barracks?

 

[wbw2123]

As I understand it, federally, an unlicensed individual from Maryland selling you, an 03FFL, a c&r eligible firearm out of state is perfectly legal and the firearm would not enter the MD registry, which would be a plus in my mind.


Can you show me where this would be legal?
I'm not sure I have seen this in the law and would be interested in reading how this is legal.

From the ATF Website

Q: Is there a specific license that permits a collector to acquire firearms in interstate commerce?

Yes. The person may obtain a collector’s license; however, this license applies only to transactions in curio or relic firearms. The principal advantage of a collector’s license is that a licensed collector can acquire curios or relics in interstate commerce.

[18 U.S.C 27 CFR 478.41(c), (d), 18 U.S.C 478.50(b) and 18 U.S.C 478.93]

Q: Does the Federal firearms law require licensed collectors to comply with State laws and local published ordinances which are relevant to the enforcement of the GCA?

Yes. It is unlawful for any licensed collector to sell or deliver any firearm or ammunition to any person if the person’s purchase or possession would be in violation of any State law or local published ordinance applicable at the place of sale or delivery.

[18 U.S.C. 922(b)(2), 18 U.S.C. 27 CFR18 U.S.C 478.99(b)(2)]

 

[wbw2123]

I have not been through all of COMAR but I have not seen or heard of anywhere in COMAR that prohibits Maryland residents from engaging in interstate commerce regarding firearms. Hopefully someone who has can confirm the lack of code or provide a citation.

 

[Abulg1972]

Just step out of state, and make the sale, come back in state, and record in your bound book.

As I understand it, federally, an unlicensed individual from Maryland selling you, an 03FFL, a c&r eligible firearm out of state is perfectly legal and the firearm would not enter the MD registry, which would be a plus in my mind.

First IANAL. That said, as I read the law, 2 MD residents should indeed be able to step out of the state to complete a C&R transaction. I see nothing explicitly prohibiting this practice.

No, guys, you're giving dangerously bad advice. An 03FFL gives you no special powers with respect to a transaction between one resident of Maryland and another resident of Maryland. The GCA covers transactions in interstate commerce, and two Maryland residents traveling out of state to conduct a sale is not "interstate commerce".

The ATF's regulations at 27 C.F.R. § 478.58 provides:

A license issued under this part confers no right or privilege to conduct business or activity contrary to State or other law. The holder of such a license is not by reason of the rights and privileges granted by that license immune from punishment for operating a firearm or ammunition business or activity in violation of the provisions of any State or other law. Similarly, compliance with the provisions of any State or other law affords no immunity under Federal law or regulations.

The GCA does not specifically deal with or regulate a transaction between residents of the same state. Under the GCA, two Maryland residents, one of whom is an 03FFL, may travel to, say, Pennsylvania to transfer a firearm, but only if that transaction complies with applicable state law.

In the case of a regulated firearm that will be sold by one Maryland resident to another Maryland resident, licensed or not, Maryland law is the applicable law. If you think that two Maryland residents can avoid the reach of MD law by conducting a transaction in, say, PA, you're wrong and, in fact, you'd violate the GCA as well if that transaction failed to comply with Maryland law (you'd probably also be violating PA law). Section 5-124(a) of the Public Safety Article of the Maryland Code provides:

(1) A person who is not a licensee may not sell, rent, transfer, or purchase a regulated firearm until after 7 days following the time a firearm application is executed by the firearm applicant, in triplicate, and the original is forwarded by a licensee to the Secretary.

(2) As an alternative to completing a secondary sale of a regulated firearm through a licensee, a prospective seller, lessor, or transferor and a prospective purchaser, lessee, or transferee may complete the transaction through a designated law enforcement agency.

A Maryland 03 FFL who wants to purchase a regulated firearm from another Maryland resident must complete and submit a firearms application and either wait 7 days before acquisition or conduct that transfer at the MSP barracks.

 

[wbw2123]

This is the only answer that needs to be said in this thread (and every thread that pops up asking this same question every couple months). Sure there appears to be loopholes, but do you want to be the one whose neck it finally closes on? Just to avoid $10 and 20 minutes of your time at an MSP barracks?

I am not arguing the your point regarding the safety of a barracks transfer, but I don't agree with interstate commerce being a "loophole." To me it is the law as written.

Maryland code again as I understand it (I don't have a citation for this yet) only applies to C&R handgun transfers that happen within state lines. Abulg, I may very well be wrong. Do you have a citation that shows where MD law applies if both place or sale and delivery are both outside of MD?

 

[smokedog]

As I understand it, federally, an unlicensed individual from Maryland selling you, an 03FFL, a c&r eligible firearm out of state is perfectly legal and the firearm would not enter the MD registry, which would be a plus in my mind.


Can you show me where this would be legal?
I'm not sure I have seen this in the law and would be interested in reading how this is legal.

First paragraph above was not my quote...second one was my question.
Not sure how that happened...

 

[wbw2123]

First paragraph above was not my quote...second one was my question.
Not sure how that happened...

Sorry, you must not have quoted me in your original post.

Should read

As I understand it, federally, an unlicensed individual from Maryland selling you, an 03FFL, a c&r eligible firearm out of state is perfectly legal and the firearm would not enter the MD registry, which would be a plus in my mind.

Can you show me where this would be legal?
I'm not sure I have seen this in the law and would be interested in reading how this is legal.

 

[wbw2123]

Abulg, just to clarify. This from COMAR is what I am basing my statements on:

29.03.01.02

.02 Generally.

A. This chapter restricts the sale, rental, transfer, purchase, receipt, possession, and transport of regulated firearms and assault weapons in the State.

Point of clarification is "in the State."

If this is bad information, I welcome the correction. I definitely don't want to do or advise doing something that is in violation of MD law.