Submitted Today to MSP & ATF

[erwos]

Well, there's always amendments... we'll see.

 

[fabsroman]

The roster board wants absolutely nothing to do with SBRs, SBSs, or anything else other than a handgun (as we know it).

And I suspect she is up to something as well, not just trying to get into our good graces.

I thought having a SBR defined as a handgun is what took them out of the assault long gun category (e.g., SBR AR-15). If she defines an SBR as a rifle and a SBS as a shotgun (i.e., both long guns), wouldn't that take them out of the handgun category and then subject them to being banned entirely as an assault long gun by name (e.g., SBR AR-15).

This is something that we need to pay extreme attention to.

 

[OrbitalEllipses]

Well, under current law we can have new SBRs of a certain length as long as they're on the roster as a pistol? I don't really understand the intricacies of SBRs being both a pistol and a rifle, but I thought the pistol thing is what even allows us to have SBRs of AK pistols...under her bill, wouldn't we not be able to have that?

EDIT: I see Fabs said the same thing and took less time to post.

 

[fabsroman]

Well, under current law we can have new SBRs of a certain length as long as they're on the roster as a pistol? I don't really understand the intricacies of SBRs being both a pistol and a rifle, but I thought the pistol thing is what even allows us to have SBRs of AK pistols...under her bill, wouldn't we not be able to have that?

EDIT: I see Fabs said the same thing and took less time to post.

And Fabs just went and submitted an order to his LGS for two CMT billet lowers. Going to get them ASAP and get the Form 1 submitted on them ASAP.

I don't trust Dumais at all to pass anything pro gun owner. Yeah, she is trying to get back in our good graces alright. Cannot wait to see the text of this proposed bill. Just when we thought things were quiet. Fixed the issue with the ATF, now we have another issue.

Who knows, maybe I'm wrong and Dumais will define SBR and SBS as its very own definition and they will NOT be subject to FSA2013. Not holding my breath on that though.

 

[erwos]

I thought having a SBR defined as a handgun is what took them out of the assault long gun category (e.g., SBR AR-15). If she defines an SBR as a rifle and a SBS as a shotgun (i.e., both long guns), wouldn't that take them out of the handgun category and then subject them to being banned entirely as an assault long gun by name (e.g., SBR AR-15).

Not really. The reason they're not ALGs is really legislative intent - the named SBRs were removed from the list during the debate over the bill, at the behest of the MSP. That's why the Galil SAR isn't on the list, for example.

Again, the bill appears to be nothing but good for us - it just does not resolve the Engage lawsuit issue.

What we really want is something like "rifle does not include SBR" and "handgun does not include SBR". It was dumb to try to legislate them as handguns and rifles, they're a separate category.

 

[teratos]

Hey Guys..... http://mgaleg.maryland.gov/webmga/frmMain.aspx?id=HB0614&stab=01&pid=billpage&tab=subject3&ys=2015RS

Looks like Delegate Dumais is trying to get back on our good side.

She's up to something. Just trying to figure out what. This is so out of character for her. Unless she's trying to help avoid the Engage lawsuit. What's in that for her?

She bears watching carefully.

I thought having a SBR defined as a handgun is what took them out of the assault long gun category (e.g., SBR AR-15). If she defines an SBR as a rifle and a SBS as a shotgun (i.e., both long guns), wouldn't that take them out of the handgun category and then subject them to being banned entirely as an assault long gun by name (e.g., SBR AR-15).

This is something that we need to pay extreme attention to.

Fabs nailed it. Right now, you can't buy an AK rifle. You CAN buy an AK pistol. There are several other guns out there like this (pretty much all banned ALGs). This will make it impossible to buy these guns as pistols and make it a SBR. I prefer to see SBRs considered pistols. Then all the goodness that was available before will be still available at the cost of a stamp.....

 

[swinokur]

So it's her normal MO and goal is to ban more long guns?

 

[fabsroman]

Not really. The reason they're not ALGs is really legislative intent - the named SBRs were removed from the list during the debate over the bill, at the behest of the MSP. That's why the Galil SAR isn't on the list, for example.

Again, the bill appears to be nothing but good for us - it just does not resolve the Engage lawsuit issue.

What we really want is something like "rifle does not include SBR" and "handgun does not include SBR". It was dumb to try to legislate them as handguns and rifles, they're a separate category.

Have you seen a copy of the bill? There is no text of the bill available on the General Assembly website.

 

[teratos]

So it's her normal MO and goal is to ban more long guns?

I don't know if she thought that far ahead, but it would close some loopholes.

 

[fabsroman]

I don't know if she thought that far ahead, but it would close some loopholes.

Loopholes? I thought it was their intent not to touch NFA items back in 2013. Per ERWOS, that was the legislative intent back then, was it not? So, why screw around with this now?

Unless this bill allows us to SBR an AR-15 with an OAL of less than 29", I don't see how anything she drafts will help us. SBRs and SBSs are being approved by ATF once again. The only reason the ATF does not approve them when they are less than 29" OAL, is because they fall under the definition of a copycat weapon, and I think the only reason they approve them right now at greater than 29" OAL is because they fall under the definition of a Handgun and not an Assault Long Gun.

I am dying to see this language. Hopefully, it says:

Short barreled rifles are rifles with a barrel length less than 16".

Short barreled shotguns are shotguns with a barrel length less than 18"

Short barreled rifles and short barreled shoguns are not Assault Weapons.

Yep, that would do it for me. Takes them out of the entire assault weapon category. No more 29" restriction and they are completely free of the Assault Long Gun definition and the Copycat Weapon definition. No worries about OAL or the number of evil features if you pay for the $200 tax stamp, jump through all the legal paperwork, and submit for an anal cavity search (No offense Teratos).

 

[teratos]

Loopholes? I thought it was their intent not to touch NFA items back in 2013. Per ERWOS, that was the legislative intent back then, was it not? So, why screw around with this now?

Unless this bill allows us to SBR an AR-15 with an OAL of less than 29", I don't see how anything she drafts will help us. SBRs and SBSs are being approved by ATF once again. The only reason the ATF does not approve them when they are less than 29" OAL, is because they fall under the definition of a copycat weapon, and I think the only reason they approve them right now at greater than 29" OAL is because they fall under the definition of a Handgun and not an Assault Long Gun.

I am dying to see this language. Hopefully, it says:

Short barreled rifles are rifles with a barrel length less than 16".

Short barreled shotguns are shotguns with a barrel length less than 18"

Short barreled rifles and short barreled shoguns are not Assault Weapons.

Yep, that would do it for me. Takes them out of the entire assault weapon category. No more 29" restriction and they are completely free of the Assault Long Gun definition and the Copycat Weapon definition. No worries about OAL or the number of evil features if you pay for the $200 tax stamp, jump through all the legal paperwork, and submit for an anal cavity search (No offense Teratos).

I don't think they cared about NFA. They didn't touch machine guns. If SBR's are no longer considered pistols, they will fall under the ALG category, no? If they are classified as pistols, IMO the ALG feature test does not apply, that would include the OAL. I want SBR's to be classified as pistols so I can put a 7.5" barrel on an AR or SBR a Tavor or P90. Wouldn't they have to specifically pass a law which states NFA are exempt from the copycat definition if they are no longer classified as pistols?

 

[erwos]

Have you seen a copy of the bill? There is no text of the bill available on the General Assembly website.

Did you look at the section the bill addresses? It's not touching CL 4-201, it's going after PS 5-401, which only relates to the handgun roster.

You guys need to stop panicking. Based on the information available, this will only make SBRs easier to get.

Loopholes? I thought it was their intent not to touch NFA items back in 2013. Per ERWOS, that was the legislative intent back then, was it not? So, why screw around with this now?

In my defense, I said that the original ALG legislation from the 90's had that intent. It was unclear whether MDFSA2013 was intended to hit NFA weapons. I doubt anyone thought about it.

 

[fabsroman]

Did you look at the section the bill addresses? It's not touching CL 4-201, it's going after PS 5-401, which only relates to the handgun roster.

You guys need to stop panicking. Based on the information available, this will only make SBRs easier to get.


In my defense, I said that the original ALG legislation from the 90's had that intent. It was unclear whether MDFSA2013 was intended to hit NFA weapons. I doubt anyone thought about it.

§5–401.
(a) In this subtitle the following words have the meanings indicated.
(b) “Board” means the Handgun Roster Board.
(c) “Handgun” has the meaning stated in § 4-201 of the Criminal Law Article.
(d) “Handgun roster” means the roster of authorized handguns compiled by the Board under § 5-405 of this subtitle.
(e) “Secretary” means the Secretary of State Police or the Secretary’s designee.

And the intent of her bill is to:

Altering the definition of handgun for purposes of provisions relating to the Handgun Roster Board to exclude a shotgun, a rifle, a short-barreled rifle, a short-barreled shotgun, or an antique firearm from the definition.

Somehow, I am not getting a warm fuzzy feeling over this. Maybe she will exclude the requirement that a SBR or SBS be included on the Roster before it can be purchased. Thing is, wouldn't she have to change a couple other things to make it such that a SBR or SBS does not need to be on the Roster before it can be purchased.

It will be interesting to see how the text of this bill reads.

I'm not panicking. Was going to get a couple SBRs before the entire ATF snafu, was going to put it off now because of tax season, but this is just an impetus to get it done sooner rather than sorry.

 

[erwos]

Somehow, I am not getting a warm fuzzy feeling over this. Maybe she will exclude the requirement that a SBR or SBS be included on the Roster before it can be purchased. Thing is, wouldn't she have to change a couple other things to make it such that a SBR or SBS does not need to be on the Roster before it can be purchased.

Nah, just altering the definition of handgun in PS 5-401 would take care of SBRs needing to be on the roster. All of the handgun roster law is in section 5-4XX, including the requirement to be on it.

What we also want is for CL 4-201 to specifically exclude handguns from the definition of rifle and shotgun. This would resolve the ambiguity that is letting the MSP define SBRs as rifles and handguns concurrently. I have no idea why none of the legislators from our side have submitted that two line legislation. *shrugs*

I'm not panicking. Was going to get a couple SBRs before the entire ATF snafu, was going to put it off now because of tax season, but this is just an impetus to get it done sooner rather than sorry.

Fair enough. I'd be more worried about the upcoming trust changes, though. That drove my purchase of an M11/9 a few months ahead of schedule.

 

[Elliotte]

The text of the bill is on the MGA website http://mgaleg.maryland.gov/webmga/frmMain.aspx?pid=billpage&stab=02&id=HB0614&tab=subject3&ys=2015RS for all to see.

 

[swinokur]

here's the pdf and a screen grab
.
.

 

[fabsroman]

The text of the bill is on the MGA website http://mgaleg.maryland.gov/webmga/frmMain.aspx?pid=billpage&stab=02&id=HB0614&tab=subject3&ys=2015RS for all to see.

And it is all good. The definition only applies to that subtitle. So, SBRs and SBSs do not have to be on the handgun roster anymore.

We need to send Dumais a thank you card.

Have to wonder if this is because Hogan got elected and some democrats are actually worried about their continued election, or if it was due to something else.

Now, have her propose a bill to get rid of the ridiculous and expensive fired shell casing program. That money can be better spent elsewhere on education or fighting crime. I'd prefer education so they get kids to choose a legal occupation versus crime.

 

[swinokur]

I still don't trust her. A leopard doesn't change it's spots.

unless there something in it for the leopard.

waiting with fingers crossed.

 

[Xander]

This is an attempt to legitimize the MSP's position that SBR's are rifles, and therefore are subject to regulation as copycat weapons. My guess is that either Frosh or the MSP asked her to introduce the bill. This is bad.

 

[swinokur]

So far it only affect the PS statute, not the CS.