Tell me if this is a legal Transfer Please!

[deesly1]

My Father is a CCW holder in Pittsburgh/PA. Lets say I found a firearm I like at a local family gun shop we in PA. I am not disqualified from legally purchasing firearms in MD. However, to by pass the new shell casing that would have to be done in MD on a new firearm, could I have my father purchase the gun under his name. Then in about 5 days, transfer it to me through a MD FFL without having to get the spent shell casing BS done?

 

[jonnyl]

Are you sure the hassle is worth the extra $$ to have a qualified MD FFL do the casing for you? I think I saw a post today from one that said $25.

Also, what brand of gun? I'm not positive, but I believe some manufacturers send out a casing with all new guns (not just ones sent to MD).

 

[deesly1]

Are you sure the hassle is worth the extra $$ to have a qualified MD FFL do the casing for you? I think I saw a post today from one that said $25.

Also, what brand of gun? I'm not positive, but I believe some manufacturers send out a casing with all new guns (not just ones sent to MD).

I know for a fact that some places in PA sell firearms a lot cheaper than MD dealers, and they have some hard to get products in stock. I was asking because if the gun is used then it does not need a shell casing. Am I correct in that rationale?

 

[shaddydan]

What's the "loophole?' How do I not follow the law? Troll somewhere else! This is a forum for responsible law abiding firearms owners!

 

[Sig Fan]

99% sure that if a firearm has ever been transferred to an individual, it is considered used and would not be subject to the shell casing requirement. Doesn't matter if it has ever been fired or not.

 

[deesly1]

What's the "loophole?' How do I not follow the law? Troll somewhere else! This is a forum for responsible law abiding firearms owners!

First off, I am not a troll. I have been apart of this site for a while. I am trying to find out if my Dad in PA bought a NEW gun in PA, then Transfered it to me through a MD FFL would it by-pass having to get a fired shell casing because from what I am told PA does not do the shell casings on NEW firearms. But Sir I AM NOT A TROLL!! I have pictures on this web site and I contribute when I can to conversations. Do not look at my low post count and assume I am trying to trap someone to give false information!

 

[deesly1]

99% sure that if a firearm has ever been transferred to an individual, it is considered used and would not be subject to the shell casing requirement. Doesn't matter if it has ever been fired or not.

Thank You Sir for answering the question?

 

[jonnyl]

I know for a fact that some places in PA sell firearms a lot cheaper than MD dealers, and they have some hard to get products in stock. I was asking because if the gun is used then it does not need a shell casing. Am I correct in that rationale?

You're correct about used not requiring a casing. The only potential issue I see (I'm not sure it is one) would be if there are any laws, Fed or PA, about purchasing a firearm with the intent to sell it.

It doesn't sound like he'd be "in the business", so probably not an issue, but might be worth some more googling.

So, now our curiosity is up! What are you planning to get?

Good luck!

 

[deesly1]

You're correct about used not requiring a casing. The only potential issue I see (I'm not sure it is one) would be if there are any laws, Fed or PA, about purchasing a firearm with the intent to sell it.

It doesn't sound like he'd be "in the business", so probably not an issue, but might be worth some more googling.

So, now our curiosity is up! What are you planning to get?

Good luck!

The Jury is still out on what, but it definetly opens up a different market because my dad has a stainless steel Sig P229 (MADE IN GERMANY) that i had my eye on before you bought it from underneath me. Oh well, I just have to wait another 20-25 years, it will be in the Will! (LOL!)

 

[ThatIsAFact]

avoid "straw purchase"

I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice. In this kind of exercise you need to be concerned with three sets of laws -- Pennsylvania law, Maryland law, and federal law. I'm just going to skip the Pennsylvania law because I think the immediate problem you have is with federal law. If your father is really buying the handgun on your behalf, and your intent is that you will pay him for the gun, then he would be engaged in a "straw purchase" and arguably committing a federal felony. This is true even if you are not disqualified from purchasing a handgun yourself. The federal Firearm Transaction Record form, ATF Form 4473, states: "Warning: You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearms(s) on behalf of another person." For more information on this, see this ATF page: http://www.atf.gov/training/firearms/ffl-learning-theater/episode-4.html

If, on the other hand, your father purchased a handgun he knew you would like, and presented it to you as a bona fide gift, that would be okay. As you already know, it would have to be transferred to you through an FFL in Maryland.

Under Maryland State Police regulations, once a handgun has been owned by a non-FFL, however briefly, it is no longer "new" and the fired-casing law does not apply. However, whether "new" or "used," if manufactured after 1984 the model must be on the Maryland Handgun Roster, and if manufactured after 2002 the firearm will need to have an "integrated" lock off the list approved by the Roster Board, either provided by the manufacturer or otherwise provided at the time of transfer by the FFL.

 

[jonnyl]

I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice. In this kind of exercise you need to be concerned with three sets of laws -- Pennsylvania law, Maryland law, and federal law. I'm just going to skip the Pennsylvania law because I think the immediate problem you have is with federal law. If your father is really buying the handgun on your behalf, and your intent is that you will pay him for the gun, then he would be engaged in a "straw purchase" and arguably committing a federal felony. This is true even if you are not disqualified from purchasing a handgun yourself. The federal Firearm Transaction Record form, ATF Form 4473, states: "Warning: You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearms(s) on behalf of another person." For more information on this, see this ATF page: http://www.atf.gov/training/firearms/ffl-learning-theater/episode-4.html

If, on the other hand, your father purchased a handgun he knew you would like, and presented it to you as a bona fide gift, that would be okay. As you already know, it would have to be transferred to you through an FFL in Maryland.

Under Maryland State Police regulations, once a handgun has been owned by a non-FFL, however briefly, it is no longer "new" and the fired-casing law does not apply. However, whether "new" or "used," if manufactured after 1984 the model must be on the Maryland Handgun Roster, and if manufactured after 2002 the firearm will need to have an "integrated" lock off the list approved by the Roster Board, either provided by the manufacturer or otherwise provided at the time of transfer by the FFL.

I don't want to speak for the OP, but I think his plan was to xfer from his Dad to a MD FFL for all background checks, etc...

 

[Nixon]

I don't want to speak for the OP, but I think his plan was to xfer from his Dad to a MD FFL for all background checks, etc...

I am not an attorney either, but if the whole purpose of this is to get around the MD shell casing law I think you would have a problem

 

[montoya32]

Just make sure the firearm is legal in MD and on the handgun roster. Also, the way BATFE is and MD state police, a purchase and transfer so quickly may throw up red flags and flares all over.

 

[DoubleTap007]

As has been said, if the gun has been transferred (sold) to a non-FFL, then its used, and therefore, the shell casing isn't necessary. With that said, I would just find a FFL that is able to produce a shell casing. I just had it done, bought gun in PA, had sent to my FFL, he then had a 07FFL (I think that is the class) produce the shell casing, $30.

 

[ThatIsAFact]

two different issues

I don't want to speak for the OP, but I think his plan was to xfer from his Dad to a MD FFL for all background checks, etc...

I think you are confusing the "straw purchase" issue with the interstate transfer issue. These are two separate and distinct aspects of the federal law. If his father answers "yes" to Question 11(a) on the ATF Form 4473 ("Are you the actual buyer of the firearm listed on this form?"), when he fact he is buying it because the OP instructed him to, and the father intends to turn around and sell the firearm to to the OP, then the father is doing exactly what the ATF says you cannot do -- read the material at the link that I posted above. Once the father transfers the handgun to the "real" buyer, his son, a federal crime has occurred -- the "straw purchase." That would be true even if they go through all the other federal requirements for an interstate transfer. (If they just walked outside the store in Pennsylvania and exchanged gun-for-money, then multiple federal violations would be likely.)

I grant you, the OP's scenario is not what most people think of when they hear the phrase "straw purchase," because the OP is not disqualified from buying handgun himself. It is a violation all the same.

I'd love to hear a different point of view. It seems to me that the OP wants a certain gun and wants the best deal possible, but he also wants to comply with all applicable laws. It is not improper to inquire as to what his options are. It seems to me that either some not-disqualified person has to buy the gun and give it to him as a pure, bona fide gift, and transfer via a Maryland FFL, or the OP himself has to buy the gun and have it shipped to an FFL in Maryland who has a manufacturer's license and the capacity to provide the fired casing.

 

[jonnyl]

I think you are confusing the "straw purchase" issue with the interstate transfer issue. These are two separate and distinct aspects of the federal law. If his father answers "yes" to Question 11(a) on the ATF Form 4473 ("Are you the actual buyer of the firearm listed on this form?"), when he fact he is buying it because the OP instructed him to, and the father intends to turn around and sell the firearm to to the OP, then the father is doing exactly what the ATF says you cannot do -- read the material at the link that I posted above. Once the father transfers the handgun to the "real" buyer, his son, a federal crime has occurred -- the "straw purchase." That would be true even if they go through all the other federal requirements for an interstate transfer. (If they just walked outside the store in Pennsylvania and exchanged gun-for-money, then multiple federal violations would be likely.)

I grant you, the OP's scenario is not what most people think of when they hear the phrase "straw purchase," because the OP is not disqualified from buying handgun himself. It is a violation all the same.

I'd love to hear a different point of view. It seems to me that the OP wants a certain gun and wants the best deal possible, but he also wants to comply with all applicable laws. It is not improper to inquire as to what his options are. It seems to me that either some not-disqualified person has to buy the gun and give it to him as a pure, bona fide gift, and transfer via a Maryland FFL, or the OP himself has to buy the gun and have it shipped to an FFL in Maryland who has a manufacturer's license and the capacity to provide the fired casing.

So, the OP would probably be clear in the MD purchase from the FFL, but the Father's purchase would be a straw purchase based on his knowledge at the time that he was going to re-sell it. Correct? I get what you're saying. Seems like the cleanest course would be to pay the bucks to have the MD FFL do the casing.

So, let me ask an academic question. For the sake of argument, let's say you were in a state with no waiting period. If someone is visiting the other side of the state, and sees a really good deal on a gun and knows they could sell it to someone (not a specific person) quickly back in their hometown at a nice profit, would that be a straw purchase? Legal short term investment? or something else like "acting as a dealer"?

 

[ThatIsAFact]

federal definition of dealer

So, let me ask an academic question. For the sake of argument, let's say you were in a state with no waiting period. If someone is visiting the other side of the state, and sees a really good deal on a gun and knows they could sell it to someone (not a specific person) quickly back in their hometown at a nice profit, would that be a straw purchase? Legal short term investment? or something else like "acting as a dealer"?

Since your scenario involves an unspecified state other than Maryland, l will speak just to the federal law aspect. Here a summary of the pertinent law from the ATF:

Section 923(a), Title 18, U.S.C., provides that no person shall engage in the business of dealing in firearms until he has filed an application and received a license to do so. . . . .The term “dealer” is defined at 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(11)(A) to include any person engaged in the business of selling firearms at wholesale or retail. The term “engaged in the business” as applied to a dealer in firearms means a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms. . . . However, the term does not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms. 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(21)(C).

The scenario that you describe seems to me to clearly fall within the realm of "occasional sales . . . for a hobby," and to be permissible as far as federal law is concerned. One would want to avoid doing it so often that one might be perceived to be approaching the realm of "a regular course of trade."

 

[deesly1]

So I would be safer getting the Firearm as a gift and then having it transfered to MD after a period of lets say 30 days. It would show that the firearm was used. Since it was never gonna be transfered without a PA?MD FFL, I was just trying to by-pass the shell casing that is useless and could add to the price of the firearm. So in essence the transfer would be legal in both states, however I thought the idea of a straw purchase was the act of purchasing a firearm, for a disqualified person, OUTSIDE of the proper transfer through state and local laws, PA/MD respectively. How would that "intent" be any different then a used gun as a gift from my father going throught the proper channels. I really am greatful for all inputs.

 

[ThatIsAFact]

keep it simple

So I would be safer getting the Firearm as a gift and then having it transfered to MD after a period of lets say 30 days. It would show that the firearm was used. Since it was never gonna be transfered without a PA?MD FFL, I was just trying to by-pass the shell casing that is useless and could add to the price of the firearm. So in essence the transfer would be legal in both states, however I thought the idea of a straw purchase was the act of purchasing a firearm, for a disqualified person, OUTSIDE of the proper transfer through state and local laws, PA/MD respectively. How would that "intent" be any different then a used gun as a gift from my father going throught the proper channels. I really am greatful for all inputs.

All of my comments have been about the prohibitions and requirements of the federal law. I don't know what kind of state forms you have to sign in Pennsylvania to buy a handgun, or what questions they ask.

As far as the federal law goes, I've explained the way I see it. Certainly, it is possible to conduct an illegal "straw purchase" on behalf of a person who is not disqualified from purchasing a handgun. Read the ATF material that I linked in my initial response to your inquiry. Saith the ATF: "Generally, the straw purchaser is used because the actual purchaser is not eligible to conduct a transaction because he or she is a felon or other prohibited person. However, a straw purchase occurs even when the actual purchaser is not a prohibited person. The crime committed is knowingly making a false statement on the Form 4473 indicating that the straw purchaser is the actual purchaser, when this is not the case."

Someone may come along here with a different point of view, and who argues that the second transfer thru an FFL somehow cures the original directed purchase. I don't think so.

Note that in my posts above, I've always referred to "a bona fide gift." The gifting cannot be a pretext. It's not what you call it, it's what it is. Really, as a number of people have already implied in this thread, you would be well advised to simply buy the handgun yourself and pay the fee to have the shell casing prepared in Maryland.

 

[webb297]

So I would be safer getting the Firearm as a gift and then having it transfered to MD after a period of lets say 30 days. It would show that the firearm was used. Since it was never gonna be transfered without a PA?MD FFL, I was just trying to by-pass the shell casing that is useless and could add to the price of the firearm. So in essence the transfer would be legal in both states, however I thought the idea of a straw purchase was the act of purchasing a firearm, for a disqualified person, OUTSIDE of the proper transfer through state and local laws, PA/MD respectively. How would that "intent" be any different then a used gun as a gift from my father going throught the proper channels. I really am greatful for all inputs.

Not a Lawyer, It is all about intent. Say your father bought the gun intending to own it and shoot it, then after, 30 days or so he realizes that he just does not like the gun, and wants to get rid of it. Maybe then you come along, any you dont want to see your father out that money, stuck with a gun he does not like, and you offer to buy it from him. You will be stuck with the transfer fees to MD, which are usually about twice the cost of producing a fired shell casing. Also, this thread would then probably put you afoul of Fed Law.