Thoughts on upgrading scope rings.

[clandestine]

I don't really know anything about the fixed v. QD debate from personal experience, but for what it's worth, I recall reading in the new edition of Maj. Plaster's tome "Sniper" (great "can" reading) that he had tested many of the most popular QD mounts (without mentioning names), and, while many were close, he had yet to find one that really did "return to zero."

If he did it wasnt a LaRue. Todd Hodnett did the same tests and LaRue had no measured variance compared to premium fixed mounts.

 

[Winged Pig]

Link?

 

[DZ]

Chad - with your LT set up, what is your height above bore? Do you find the tolerances (on the LT112/120) tight enough to not require lapping?

 

[clandestine]

Link?

No link. Buy Magpul Art of the Precision Rifle and see for yourself. Its about 8 hours of instruction from one of the most sought after Sniper Instructors currently.

Chad - with your LT set up, what is your height above bore? Do you find the tolerances (on the LT112/120) tight enough to not require lapping?

Ill measure when Im back home. The LT104 is a compromise because the HOB is high but it grants me the most versatility ising optics on multiple weapons with BUIS and Stepped Mounts. If you are only using the optic on a bolt gun get the lowest LaRue mount.

 

[Winged Pig]

No link. Buy Magpul Art of the Precision Rifle and see for yourself. Its about 8 hours of instruction from one of the most sought after Sniper Instructors currently.

Really?

I try to be open minded and ask for a link to hopefully check out some independent data to either substantiate or repudiate your claims, and you tell me to go buy a $60.00 video? By the way, the same video that is sold by Larue, and touts their product... Even though I have no desire to move away from my current rail and ring set up, I was attempting to remain objective.

Like I have stated prior in this thread, I think Larue makes good kit, and I have purchased more than one of their products, but by asking for the link I was hoping for an objective, independent analysis of their quick detachable mounts, specifically with regard to repeatable POI after removal.

Oh well...

 

[HT4]

Really?

I try to be open minded and ask for a link to hopefully check out some independent data to either substantiate or repudiate your claims, and you tell me to go buy a $60.00 video? By the way, the same video that is sold by Larue, and touts their product... Even though I have no desire to move away from my current rail and ring set up, I was attempting to remain objective.

Like I have stated prior in this thread, I think Larue makes good kit, and I have purchased more than one of their products, but by asking for the link I was hoping for an objective, independent analysis of their quick detachable mounts, specifically with regard to repeatable POI after removal.

Oh well...

Todd Hodnett's credentials are relatively unimpeachable when it comes to distance shooting. That said, he does show up at a lot of high profile LaRue events wearing LaRue shirts (a sponsor?). I suppose there are grounds for questioning objectivity, but I wouldn't put too much stock in that.

 

[Winged Pig]

I'm not attempting to impeach his creds, but it would be nice to either see his data, or hear from another source who has properly tested quick detachable mounts. No argument about Mr. Hodnett being a very good shooter, but he is not the only reliable source of information/top level shooter around.

If the data is that clear, then at least one other top level shooter should be in agreement with him, but as yet I have not read of one. Nor have I seen his data. His close relationship with Larue may be nothing other than his appreciating a superior product, then again it may be something more.

Until the data is available, how exactly is one to know? Aside from sending Larue $60.00 for the video...

 

[clandestine]

Really?

I try to be open minded and ask for a link to hopefully check out some independent data to either substantiate or repudiate your claims, and you tell me to go buy a $60.00 video? By the way, the same video that is sold by Larue, and touts their product... Even though I have no desire to move away from my current rail and ring set up, I was attempting to remain objective.

Like I have stated prior in this thread, I think Larue makes good kit, and I have purchased more than one of their products, but by asking for the link I was hoping for an objective, independent analysis of their quick detachable mounts, specifically with regard to repeatable POI after removal.

Oh well...

So hes a sellout, am I a sellout? Will you just come out and say it? Your NOT being open minded whasoever, every point I make you argue it. Im not a LaRue fanboy, I get no kickback from suggesting their gear. Im NOT a fan of their rail systems. For the price you can get equal quality for HALF from other manufacturers. I simply tell people what works and what is cost effective based on real life experience. LaRue makes the BEST Q.D. Mounts for the price. They are 100% repeatable and rugged when used with the proper bases/rails. I put together more presicion rigs a year than most people handle in their lifetime. Im not a professional trigger puller but my gunsmithing is superb. I dont recomend crap or sell out nor do I opine on subjects I have no experience with.

I personally swapped from fixed Badgers to Q.D. and my accuracy/consistency had no change. You dont want to spend $60 on the video, Ill let you borrow MINE. No charge, just return it in the same condition after a few weeks.

Training is constant, it dosent stop and gear always evolves and improves. Electronics, Optics, Ammunition, Coatings, etc...... Being stubborn about accepting change is fine but your arguing over something you have no experience with (MODERN Quick Release Mounts). You only use fixed Precision Rig mounts and your speaking with authority on this issue?

 

[clandestine]

Todd Hodnett's credentials are relatively unimpeachable when it comes to distance shooting. That said, he does show up at a lot of high profile LaRue events wearing LaRue shirts (a sponsor?). I suppose there are grounds for questioning objectivity, but I wouldn't put too much stock in that.

Thanks for the post. FWIW from what I saw Todd was using LaRue stuff before Magpul and LaRue picked up on him. I never understood the value in using it till I saw it in action, then it all clicked.

He does promote LaRue stuff, so does Chris Costa, theres a reason for that, they make some amazing gear. Their Precision AR's are unrivaled in Autoloading Accuracy.

 

[clandestine]

Chad - with your LT set up, what is your height above bore? Do you find the tolerances (on the LT112/120) tight enough to not require lapping?

No LaRue never needs lapping, they are perfect Rings. Tjis is the dimensions with a Leupold MK4 4.5-14 50MM Metric Scope

2.5" from Bore Centerline to Scope Centerline
1.25" from Bore Centerline to 50mm Scope Bell bottom
.75" from 50mm Objective Bell to the top of the Barrel


I also use LaRue Harris Q.D. Mounts for my 3 Harris Bipods. I have 3 Harris Pivot Bipods al 3 Lengths. I have a LaRue Q.D. Mount on each and I move those 3 Bipods between ALL of my Rifles, wether they are AR's, AK', DMR's, Battle Rifles, or Precision Rigs.

The gun has a Grip Texture Job, Bedded, Keplinger Single Set/3# Standard Trigger, Chopped LOP/Limbsaver Custom Ground, Recut and Polished Ramps, , Badger Bolt Handle, Edwards Recoil Reducer in the Stock, Barrel Threaded for YHM Q.D. Suppressor Mount for 7.62 YHM Suppressor (Suppressor isnt in the Picture), U.S> Armorment Adjustable Cheek Riser with Mousepad Anti-Slip Pad, LaRue Base, LaRue Mounts, Leupy Scope, 3 Harris S Series Bipods with Throw Levers and LaRue Q.D. Mounts, Stock Barrel Channel Opened

Heres some crap photos of the gun in question:

 

[Winged Pig]

Thanks for the offer, but I think you miss the point. I never accused anyone of being a sellout, but neither am I willing to put all my faith in one person whose data I have not seen. I am simply looking for an independent analysis of the product. A product which you say I have no experience with. Amazing how you can presume to know me so well. In fact I do have some Larue QD mounts, I just do not use them on anything other than an AR platform. I never said that they were not quality products, just that I don't use them, nor do I see anyone else using them on precision rifles. Maybe I don't see enough rifles. If not, then show me where I'm wrong, don't just tell me how wrong I am.

Now a point might be what exactly is your definition of "precision". If that is CQB out to maybe 100 yards, you might be correct. On the other hand if you are talking 300 yards and beyond, you might be wrong. Mr. Hodnett may have done all that testing, but at this point you have shown no evidence of that having happened, other than you say so. You could have simply posted his results instead of telling me to spend $60.00 and being done with it.

For the record, I never called you a fan boy. In fact my initial post was simply offering an alternative opinion. One that you quickly tried to minimize. Am I not entitled to my opinion? Am I not entitled to offer said opinion to someone who asks for opinions on this board? Yes, my opinion differs from yours, but if you go back and read you will see where I asked for data to support your opinion, as opposed to you simply dismissing mine as me being stuck in my old ways.

I don't know anything about your gun-smithing abilities, and I don't believe I ever made any statement assailing them. I simply stated that I have yet to see any QD mounts in any precision (read bolt) platform in LEO, competition, or in my experience with the Marine Corps. I also indicated that my Marine Corps time was a while ago, so that may not be absolutely up to date.

Again, show me where I'm wrong, don't just tell me how much you know. I am at a loss as to why you continue to need to state how good you are when I never brought your abilities into question. I even went so far as to say that if you chose to use a QD mount, more power to you, which I don't see how could mean anything but good luck with it.

You continue to take my posts as a personal attack when all I'm doing is asking to see some testing data and results. You say that you changed from fixed to QD mounts and had no change in accuracy or consistency, but offered no data or information to show that. What rifle and equipment were you using, what ammunition, what were the environmental conditions, and what happened at the target. After all, we are talking precision rifles. Again, that is all I was asking for.

You stated that QD mounts are good for removing scopes when traveling and cleaning your rifle, but when I mentioned that I have never seen anyone do either of those things you offered no counterpoint.

I'll give you one thing, I am stubborn about change, but I am not totally opposed to it. I am just not willing to make change simply for the sake of making change or buying into the newest gadget. Show me hard data about how I can do better and I'm all for it. Try to persuade me without that data and I won't even think about it. I'm not that rich.

I also don't think I ever tried to present myself as the duty expert on this subject. In fact, here is the quote from my earlier post; "And no, I am not the be all and end all to precision rifles, but neither is this my first rodeo... " I do have some experience though, enough to have an educated opinion, and again, I'm not sure how you can presume to know what that is or isn't.

It appears as though you have an issue with my opinion simply since it doesn't agree with yours. Oh well. That's why they call them opinions, and I welcome yours as well as everyone else's. I do not however appreciate the angry, accusatory tone in your last sentence. If that is how you intend to handle this discussion, then I will have to find better threads to respond to. If I have misread that, then call me an old, disgruntled, stuck in his ways geezer. Or not. Your call.

 

[clandestine]

Thanks for the offer, but I think you miss the point. I never accused anyone of being a sellout, but neither am I willing to put all my faith in one person whose data I have not seen. I am simply looking for an independent analysis of the product. A product which you say I have no experience with. Amazing how you can presume to know me so well. In fact I do have some Larue QD mounts, I just do not use them on anything other than an AR platform. I never said that they were not quality products, just that I don't use them, nor do I see anyone else using them on precision rifles. Maybe I don't see enough rifles. If not, then show me where I'm wrong, don't just tell me how wrong I am.

Now a point might be what exactly is your definition of "precision". If that is CQB out to maybe 100 yards, you might be correct. On the other hand if you are talking 300 yards and beyond, you might be wrong. Mr. Hodnett may have done all that testing, but at this point you have shown no evidence of that having happened, other than you say so. You could have simply posted his results instead of telling me to spend $60.00 and being done with it.

For the record, I never called you a fan boy. In fact my initial post was simply offering an alternative opinion. One that you quickly tried to minimize. Am I not entitled to my opinion? Am I not entitled to offer said opinion to someone who asks for opinions on this board? Yes, my opinion differs from yours, but if you go back and read you will see where I asked for data to support your opinion, as opposed to you simply dismissing mine as me being stuck in my old ways.

I don't know anything about your gun-smithing abilities, and I don't believe I ever made any statement assailing them. I simply stated that I have yet to see any QD mounts in any precision (read bolt) platform in LEO, competition, or in my experience with the Marine Corps. I also indicated that my Marine Corps time was a while ago, so that may not be absolutely up to date.

Again, show me where I'm wrong, don't just tell me how much you know. I am at a loss as to why you continue to need to state how good you are when I never brought your abilities into question. I even went so far as to say that if you chose to use a QD mount, more power to you, which I don't see how could mean anything but good luck with it.

You continue to take my posts as a personal attack when all I'm doing is asking to see some testing data and results. You say that you changed from fixed to QD mounts and had no change in accuracy or consistency, but offered no data or information to show that. What rifle and equipment were you using, what ammunition, what were the environmental conditions, and what happened at the target. After all, we are talking precision rifles. Again, that is all I was asking for.

You stated that QD mounts are good for removing scopes when traveling and cleaning your rifle, but when I mentioned that I have never seen anyone do either of those things you offered no counterpoint.

I'll give you one thing, I am stubborn about change, but I am not totally opposed to it. I am just not willing to make change simply for the sake of making change or buying into the newest gadget. Show me hard data about how I can do better and I'm all for it. Try to persuade me without that data and I won't even think about it. I'm not that rich.

I also don't think I ever tried to present myself as the duty expert on this subject. In fact, here is the quote from my earlier post; "And no, I am not the be all and end all to precision rifles, but neither is this my first rodeo... " I do have some experience though, enough to have an educated opinion, and again, I'm not sure how you can presume to know what that is or isn't.

It appears as though you have an issue with my opinion simply since it doesn't agree with yours. Oh well. That's why they call them opinions, and I welcome yours as well as everyone else's. I do not however appreciate the angry, accusatory tone in your last sentence. If that is how you intend to handle this discussion, then I will have to find better threads to respond to. If I have misread that, then call me an old, disgruntled, stuck in his ways geezer. Or not. Your call.

Recision Shooting to me is 800 and beyond. I can make hits with an AR at 500 without serious optics so 500, not really "Long Range". You want data Ill sshow you my targets and data book for the past 5 years with this rifle. First 4 years is had Badger Mounts and I fired about 1500 rounds while recording data/impacts. All of the shooting was done at varied temps, but all local at a private farm I shoot at. Same Elevation/Altitude with no ACI corrections. Cince the Swap to LT Mounts my groups have consistently stayed at .25-.50 MOA with 5 shot groups in tha past 500 since. Cold Bore shots also dont change POA/POI. My rifle likes Hornady Match Factory ammo over Federal and Black Hills.

I made a bet earlier in the thread, you ignored it. My tone changed because you have ignored info, now you want facts. Theres certainly nothing I can post that you will take as fact. You want to see hard data meet me at the range. Ill bring plenty of witnesses. Ill put up $200, you do the same. My accuracy remains the same at 800 when removing the mount and reinstalling it, I take the pot.

I use factory Hornady, Black Hills, and Federal Ammunition. The rig is listed in the pics above.

Beyond me referencing a world renowned instructior, offering the video where the info is presents, and me offering to show you first hand theres nothing I can show to prove anything to you.

You want info I offer to show you first hand, you want to see the video and say your not paying $60, so I offer the video at no cost, you refuse.

You say you see no need to remove optics, I listed several reasons. Beyond cross platform capibilities, removing Glass to clean the Weapon, Adjust Eye Relief for different shooters (Like People Have Adjustable Cheekrests and Recoil Pads) then I dont know what else to say.

These things are something I and other people who train professional trigger pullers consider an advantage. People do remove Glass to transport, they also like Q.D. mounts to have a Spare Optic if your Primary gets Damaged. A No Tool Swap in the field is an advantage if you know your DOPE and have good optics with superb tracking. You can Zero 2 Pieces of Glass for One weapon for different applications. Q.D. also allows removal for Dedicated Night Vision or AN/PEQ's N.V. Setups. Now how are these reasons "Gimmicks" as you say or a Gadget to just to have one?