Trespass by Md DNR Police

[John from MD]

The officer can check your gun to determine compliance with the law. i.e. You are hunting deer, do you have a slug or buckshot depending on the county? Do you have a plug which insures you can only have three rounds when bird hunting. Is your handgun barrel at least six inches in length? All this is in the law and they have a duty to insure everyone hunting is following the law.

 

[Bboarder]

The officer can check your gun to determine compliance with the law. i.e. You are hunting deer, do you have a slug or buckshot depending on the county? Do you have a plug which insures you can only have three rounds when bird hunting. Is your handgun barrel at least six inches in length? All this is in the law and they have a duty to insure everyone hunting is following the law.

I don't think guys are getting up in arms about those kinds of issues.

More to the points of:
-cameras on private property w/o cause
-walking around private property w/o cause

i'm more than happy to produce a license if required and allow them to handle my fire arm to ensure i'm in compliance with their arbitrary laws, but stay off my property.

 

[Rab1515]

With driving an officer can run your plate and see a variety of things. For example, is the owner licensed? Is their license suspended?

IIRC there is currently some stuff on if that could be considered cause for pulling someone over, but I know it generally can be used for such.

An officer pulling you over is effectively a temporary detention.

However if you are engaged in what appears to be hunting or fishing you are required to be licensed and you can legally be asked to produce that proof. Now, I’ve got no clue what legal basis an officer would have to inspect your firearm, for say a plug, unless they were told or observed something that made them think you had a >2+1 shotgun hunting turkey or whatever.

My guess is, they do it because almost no one tells them no. Just like officers ask to search your vehicle all the time. Maybe there is legal precedent they can and it would be admissible without permission.

Asking for a license isn’t a detention. For driving you are required to present your license to an officer. It is just that they can’t pull you over to request it without some other probable cause to execute what is, again, a temporary detention.

The moment DNR/NRP ask for a licenses you are being detained. Could you just ignore them and walk away, or would something else (bad) happen?

As for required to have a licenses, that is also not true, as long as we are sticking with the theme of private property. Land owners and a few others are exempt from having licenses. For traffic stops, police still need some reasonable suspicion to stop a vehicle, they can get some information before a stop that can lead to one, such as expired tags, registered owner having a suspended license, ect., without ever detaining the driver, but none the less police have be able to articulate a reason or law that was broken before they stop and detain a driver. Police cannot pull a car over to check if there licenses is good, which is exactly what is happening when DNR/NRP do a license check. The only reason for the inspection is that the individual *might* be doing something wrong.

Now being/hunting on public property changes things with regards to license, but the basic premise is still there, DNR/NRP get to assume your breaking a law and get to go digging looking for violations. This is what the 4th amendment was designed to protect against, especially on your own property.

 

[KIBarrister]

The moment DNR/NRP ask for a licenses you are being detained. Could you just ignore them and walk away, or would something else (bad) happen?

As for required to have a licenses, that is also not true, as long as we are sticking with the theme of private property. Land owners and a few others are exempt from having licenses. For traffic stops, police still need some reasonable suspicion to stop a vehicle, they can get some information before a stop that can lead to one, such as expired tags, registered owner having a suspended license, ect., without ever detaining the driver, but none the less police have be able to articulate a reason or law that was broken before they stop and detain a driver. Police cannot pull a car over to check if there licenses is good, which is exactly what is happening when DNR/NRP do a license check. The only reason for the inspection is that the individual *might* be doing something wrong.

Now being/hunting on public property changes things with regards to license, but the basic premise is still there, DNR/NRP get to assume your breaking a law and get to go digging looking for violations. This is what the 4th amendment was designed to protect against, especially on your own property.

You’ll get a new charge: failure to obey a reasonable and lawful order to accompany silver bracelets.

 

[newmuzzleloader]

I don't think guys are getting up in arms about those kinds of issues.

More to the points of:
-cameras on private property w/o cause
-walking around private property w/o cause

i'm more than happy to produce a license if required and allow them to handle my fire arm to ensure i'm in compliance with their arbitrary laws, but stay off my property.

EXACTLY.
My property- without a warrant no one should be allowed to put a camera up on a tree without my permission. Now State Parks, have at it that is not private property.

 

[rbird7282]

Thanks for the heads up OP, I'd never heard of Open Fields doctrine. It's pretty disappointing and I can't see how this is legal. I understand that outside people can't have an expectation of privacy, esp in a truly 'open field', but some of these cases (wikipedia, agweb) where DNR are using surveillance (game cams) and trespassing into hidden wooden areas without a warrant is RIDICULOUS.

Which brings up another question, how can they stop and ask for a hunting/fishing license, check weapons, etc as highlighted in posts when police can't just stop random drivers and check their license without probable cause? There seems to be quite the double standard.

And, where does it end? Can ATF stop onto my property when I'm shooting to make sure my AR is pre-2013? Or if I'm shooting a suppressor, to make sure I have my stamp? If I don't have a concealed carry permit, does this mean I can't carry a pistol on my property? If I'm carrying a long gun while walking in the woods, would I be cited for hunting out of season? The questions are endless...

For all those who say 'don't break the law and it's not a problem', I'd just say that's not how the 4th amendment works. It doesn't make sense that it extends to my car but not the edge of my property line.

The ATF doesn’t care if your AR is pre 2013, only MD does


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[jdcook5]

Sounds like a future lawsuit for the Supreme Court!

 

[randomuser]

Sounds like a future lawsuit for the Supreme Court!

When was the last time something like this went to the Supreme Court and we got a favorable ruling on our side?

 

[rdc]

This topic has come up here before. It led to the end of a long time member who (after numerous prior suspensions) suggested that any DNR officers found on his property would likely be mistaken for deer and handled accordingly. I predict this one has at least a 3% chance of going better than that thread did...

This was exactly the answer I was waiting for

 

[outrider58]

When was the last time something like this went to the Supreme Court and we got a favorable ruling on our side?

Give'm a break. It's his first post in 6 years!
I kid I kid!

 

[Clif]

Well, I've been a member a while too. I read a lot but don't post much. If I know the answer to something, it's pretty certain that someone more knowledgeable will answer soon enough. So I just watch. Not being up to 50 posts yet is a bit aggravating, but I don't see posting just to get my number up.

 

[Samlab]

I just saw this and started laughing.....once upon a time a Game Warden was driving down the road and from far away he heard a gun go off. Then again and again, the closer he got he decided to check out the action and make sure everything was safe....

I had one show up hiking on horseback out of nowhere, and in the middle of nowhere.

I thought it was just amazing....then I thought what if I had broken my leg? This was before cell phones.....hop along would have saved hop along me. Nice horse too....that must have been 16 hands high...horse was huge. Game Wardens, Park Police, Maryland DNR.....these people are the salt of th his earth. Great people, love them. They can trespass on my yard w/o permission as they dont need any permission.

 

[Virgil Co.C]

Well, I had the luck of a visit on private property by one of these a#@ holes and ever since then my opinion of them has change . Was goose hunting and the guy tried nailing me for hunting deer . My son and I had shotguns and it was muzzle load season. This man was clueless of waterfowl laws told me we had to have orange on . By the end of it he realized he was in the wrong but still was a prick. AA County we where in . I could go on about this incident still pisses me off .My son was around 11 at the time .ya I think they can do what ever they want and they know it.Any dealings with them anymore I comply ,always have, but I keep it short . They know I have an attitude, some ask why and I’m more than happy to tell them and the officers name who gave me that visit that day. Some of them are pretty decent just never know who or what kind of officer your gonna deal with guess likewise for them . But this guy was a real jackass. Pulled out a green book from his trunk checking all the waterfowl laws , basic stuff. Long story short version sent a couple those guys up a gut , they ask me if someone hunting up from me told them ya I think so and listened to them go up in there and get there boat stuck in the mud . Fishing bay , if you have ever hunted there you know . Assume they had to wait for tide to come in . They gave me a run down also. Doing there job I get it but damn don’t have to act like a nazi. Those are my only 2 bad experiences but they really left an impression on me .

 

[mauser58]

I have a story also from years ago. I took my two sons to where we used to hunt in Lisbon /Woodbine area of Little Patuxent Watershed. We were squirrel hunting. Down the trail came a Game Warden and started to ream me out for my one son not having orange on. I told him that it is small game season and orange not required. Well he was a prick and belted out that it was the first day of the Youth deer hunt. Well I didnt realize it because this was the VERY first year they ever had it in Maryland. He was a little overboard to say the least and could not even talk to him. He threatened me with a ticket. We ended up leaving the woods and my kids were like Dad that guy was a real ass. Well now the one son is a Wildlife Officer. He is a very understanding guy though. Like he tells me that you dont have to look for trouble. He sees so much just driving or walking in the woods or state parks.

 

[TangoSierra27]

I'very seen a lot of post on this issue. DNR has two separate divisions, They are DNR POLICE which are LEO'S, the other division is Rangers, they are not LEO'S. If they suspect a crime is being committed the LEO'S can enter under the probable cause doctrine. As for the Rangers I don't know what their powers are. If your interested in where they get their authority from, you can look up COMAR code of Maryland Regulations. COMAR outlines what certain LEO'S and Rangers can and cannot do. Hope this is helpful.

 

[Park ranger]

I'very seen a lot of post on this issue. DNR has two separate divisions, They are DNR POLICE which are LEO'S, the other division is Rangers, they are not LEO'S. If they suspect a crime is being committed the LEO'S can enter under the probable cause doctrine. As for the Rangers I don't know what their powers are. If your interested in where they get their authority from, you can look up COMAR code of Maryland Regulations. COMAR outlines what certain LEO'S and Rangers can and cannot do. Hope this is helpful.

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[boothdoc]

Lmao what kinda code is this?? ^^^^

 

[Park ranger]

Lmao what kinda code is this?? ^^^^

Hands in the air, giving up. It's the best I can do. Lol

 

[boothdoc]

Lmao. Perfect.

 

[Huck Hound]

That what happens when liberals take over your city and state.