Under 21 Ar-15 Predicament

[annihilation-time]

Good to know.

Now I'm thinking of getting a Rock River Arms Predator Pursuit with a 16" barrel, Rock River Coyote Rifle in 16" or an Olympia Arms K16... Anyone had experience with any of them?

I would go with a RRA over the Olympia. I think you meant Olympic though.

 

[QuebecoisWolf]

I would go with a RRA over the Olympia. I think you meant Olympic though.

Rock River all the way. It's a step up from Olympic Arms. Many Rock River Guns fall under the "HBAR" definition because their barrels are the heavier M16A2 type. Whether or not this makes it a true "HBAR" has been a topic of much debate. Not even the MSP knows for certain.

I'm amazed how civil we've been with this thread since the topic opens 3-4 cans of worms.

Still, I have to ask the OP: why do you want a piston AR instead of a "traditional" gas impingement system?

If you do have a really good reason or just plain don't have any interest in traditional ARs, I'd advise you to hold off on this purchase until you're 21. One thousand dollars is a lot of money. Non-gun people I know are horrified that I own a gun that runs about $1500 the way it's set up. There are folks here with $5000, $10,000, and even $20,000 or more guns. Guns are too expensive to buy the wrong one.

Buy the right gun the first time.

 

[aalmy]

Rock River all the way. It's a step up from Olympic Arms. Many Rock River Guns fall under the "HBAR" definition because their barrels are the heavier M16A2 type. Whether or not this makes it a true "HBAR" has been a topic of much debate. Not even the MSP knows for certain.

I'm amazed how civil we've been with this thread since the topic opens 3-4 cans of worms.

Still, I have to ask the OP: why do you want a piston AR instead of a "traditional" gas impingement system?

If you do have a really good reason or just plain don't have any interest in traditional ARs, I'd advise you to hold off on this purchase until you're 21. One thousand dollars is a lot of money. Non-gun people I know are horrified that I own a gun that runs about $1500 the way it's set up. There are folks here with $5000, $10,000, and even $20,000 or more guns. Guns are too expensive to buy the wrong one.

Buy the right gun the first time.

So would the RRA Coyote Rifle or RRA Predator Pursuit be considered a HBAR or not?

Also

I would want a piston gun because of the ease of cleaning, where cleaning the piston rod is a lot easier than cleaning the bolt. It provides the reliability of the AK(or any other piston platform) with the accuracy of the AR platform.

It is purely a luxury to me and I thought that since Im spending the money I might as well be able to get a piston as well.

But that being said, I am willing to go to a DI gun if its a quality gun, I mean I can always save up again and get a piston conversion, piston upper later on or even a whole rifle if i see suit.

Now, I am currently thinking of the two Rock River rifles that I have previously stated, which to make some happy are DI guns

So are they HBARs and can I, as a <21 year old, buy, shoot and posses and them in the grand ol' State of Maryland?

 

[aalmy]

Or what HBARs can I legally buy in MD, cash and carry, as an 19 year old? Can I technically only buy a Colt HBAR or are there exceptions?

How can I be sure the rifle I'm looking for is a HBAR and not something similar that would not allow me to purchase/own/shoot it?

 

[larr]

The Maryland regulated firearms list specifically excludes the HBAR from being regulated. If he keeps it in that config while he's under 21 he'll be fine.

does this mean if you buy a hbar your not allowed to change the upper?

 

[ST19AG_WGreymon]

does this mean if you buy a hbar your not allowed to change the upper?

Yes, unless you are 21+. If you take it out of HBAR configuration while you are under 21 it would be illegal.

 

[annihilation-time]

Or what HBARs can I legally buy in MD, cash and carry, as an 19 year old? Can I technically only buy a Colt HBAR or are there exceptions?

How can I be sure the rifle I'm looking for is a HBAR and not something similar that would not allow me to purchase/own/shoot it?

You need to go talk to a dealer. I know MSP sent a memo out to dealers several years ago saying an HBAR is an HBAR whether or not it says Colt. Bushmaster for example makes a copy of the same exact rifle and most MD dealers sell them as HBARs. Some dealers will only sell a heavy barreled rifle cash and carry if its stamped HBAR. The best thing to do is talk to a dealer.

 

[QuebecoisWolf]

Okay. I'm going to tiptoe through not one, but two minefields here.

Piston ARs are supposed to be the wave of the future. So was the XM8, the OICW, and about a dozen other systems. It's hard to say what will happen with Piston ARs. They've both gotten glowing reviews and been totally condemned, sometimes by the same reviewer who has a change of heart. I don't believe the hype. If they're the successor to the AR-15 system, time will tell. Until piston ARs see some long-term use and the prices go down, I'll stick with what I know works.

If you think that piston ARs are the greatest thing since John Browning, power to you and enjoy your gun. If you think that putting a piston on an AR was the worst thing to happen to firearms since the 1968 Gun Control Act, you're welcome to that opinion.

I also have to ask if you're personally familiar with both regular and piston ARs. I'm not familiar with piston ARs aside from what I've read and I've handled a few examples, but I can tell you that no AR will ever be easy to clean. I especially hate the shape of the AR's chamber.


Alright, I've looked over the RRA rifles in question and I think that both should be perfectly legal to sell as HBARs. Should be legal. There are a few FFLs out there who have alternate interpretations of § 5-101(p) including that an "HBAR" must be a Colt, that a barrel stepdown renders an AR15 as an assault weapon, or that an "HBAR" absolutely may not have a collapsible stock. The actual law is here: link. Everyone on MDShooters should be familiar with this law, if for no other reason than the fact that it's one of the most poorly written 3 page laws in the United States. FFLs here can confirm that the MSP has held that a heavy barrel alone makes a "Colt HBAR Sporter" or a clone thereof. Unfortunately, they didn't put this in a document, possibly because it could piss off gun control types in Annapolis.

For these two rifles that you're considering, it shouldn't be a problem when the sales literature notes that a heavy barrel is standard.

Good deed of the day: I'll spare you lazy folk the trouble of using google.

Predator Pursuit Rifle
Coyote Rifle

Feel free to call me out if I'm wrong, but these shouldn't be any trouble for as cash and carry if the FFL sells them as such.

 

[SirMrManGuy]

You need to go talk to a dealer. I know MSP sent a memo out to dealers several years ago saying an HBAR is an HBAR whether or not it says Colt. Bushmaster for example makes a copy of the same exact rifle and most MD dealers sell them as HBARs. Some dealers will only sell a heavy barreled rifle cash and carry if its stamped HBAR. The best thing to do is talk to a dealer.

I just bought this one from Just Guns as Cash and Carry. They had another one in all black available when I was there last week. I took it to the range once so far and was quite happy with it.

http://www.del-ton.com/DTI_16_Carbine_MOE_Rifle_p/rfth16-moeod.htm

 

[QuebecoisWolf]

I just bought this one from Just Guns as Cash and Carry. They had another one in all black available when I was there last week. I took it to the range once so far and was quite happy with it.

http://www.del-ton.com/DTI_16_Carbine_MOE_Rifle_p/rfth16-moeod.htm

Did you see this on the website?

We cannot ship this rifle to CA, HI, NY, NJ, MD, & MA due to local state guns laws.

I can't believe that we get dumped into the same category as those states. Our gun laws are bad, but not that bad!

 

[Indiana Jones]

i got my HBAR when i was 19. BEST decision i ever made. (besides my M1) mines a colt with an A3 upper. fired 1000s of rounds through it and still zero malfunctions.

 

[krashmania]

I feel you, being under 21 is a bitch, I've got till november personally.

 

[SirMrManGuy]

Did you see this on the website?



I can't believe that we get dumped into the same category as those states. Our gun laws are bad, but not that bad!

That's just because they come with 2-30round mags in that package. The one I got had 1-20 round mag instead (case, cleaning kit, lock and mag was 839+tax).

I think if you call DelTon they'll ship it to Maryland if you ask for a 20 round mag.

 

[QuebecoisWolf]

That's just because they come with 2-30round mags in that package. The one I got had 1-20 round mag instead (case, cleaning kit, lock and mag was 839+tax).

I think if you call DelTon they'll ship it to Maryland if you ask for a 20 round mag.

Good for them! There are some horror stories about companies that refuse to ship to Maryland due to non-existent laws and then they accuse you of breaking these non-existent laws if you try to place an order.

 

[aalmy]

I just bought this one from Just Guns as Cash and Carry. They had another one in all black available when I was there last week. I took it to the range once so far and was quite happy with it.

http://www.del-ton.com/DTI_16_Carbine_MOE_Rifle_p/rfth16-moeod.htm

That's just because they come with 2-30round mags in that package. The one I got had 1-20 round mag instead (case, cleaning kit, lock and mag was 839+tax).

I think if you call DelTon they'll ship it to Maryland if you ask for a 20 round mag.

That rifle has some great specs on it! and what a helluva price... Did they have it in stock there or did you order it from Del-ton? How long did that take?


edit: Just realized that that one is out of stock, do you know if they still produce them?

 

[mward]

You should really ask yourself why you want a piston gun....

FWIW, a piston gun is really not an AR-15, and thus should not be regulated. Others will disagree with this interpretation, but AR-15's are DI cycled weapons, not piston cycled. Unfortunately for you, the law enforcement officer who would arrest you for having a regulated weapon probably wouldn't understand the difference either.

Seriously, if you want a piston gun, get something else. Like a VZ-58.

He won't get arrested. Most likely if he gets pulled over or something, the officer will run the gun for stolen, etc. and that's it. Most law enforcement officers don't know the age laws, and the ones that do are usually extremely knowledgeable and you can simply explain the law. Most officers around this area are cool....I can't speak for the city boys.

 

[smokey]

So would the RRA Coyote Rifle or RRA Predator Pursuit be considered a HBAR or not?

Also

I would want a piston gun because of the ease of cleaning, where cleaning the piston rod is a lot easier than cleaning the bolt. It provides the reliability of the AK(or any other piston platform) with the accuracy of the AR platform.

It is purely a luxury to me and I thought that since Im spending the money I might as well be able to get a piston as well.

But that being said, I am willing to go to a DI gun if its a quality gun, I mean I can always save up again and get a piston conversion, piston upper later on or even a whole rifle if i see suit.

Now, I am currently thinking of the two Rock River rifles that I have previously stated, which to make some happy are DI guns

So are they HBARs and can I, as a <21 year old, buy, shoot and posses and them in the grand ol' State of Maryland?

for pistons, ure looking at LWRC and being 21 to have it. Pretty much all the rest are incomplete retrofits and suffer from various design flaws such as carrier tilt and premature wear in the upper. If you're going to go with a piston 5.56, go for one designed from the ground up as a piston system like the SCAR or ACR that you can get as non-regulated rifles. If you want an AR, DI is the proven system...few companies make piston uppers without problems. As for cleaning the bolt being hard....

...but seriously, a good nylon brush and some quality solvent and you're gtg in very short time. The biggest trick is to just keep the bolt wet in the first place. It doesn't allow the bolt to get gunked up if it's wet enough to prevent carbon from clumping up on it.

 

[smokey]

oh yeah....
http://www.mdsp.org/downloads/assault_weapons.pdf

§ 5-101(p) Assault weapon.- "Assault weapon" means any of the following specific
firearms or their copies regardless of which company produced and manufactured that
firearm:
( 1 ) American Arms Spectre da Semiautomatic carbine
( 2 ) AK-47 in all forms
( 3 ) Algimec AGM-1 type semi-auto
( 4 ) AR 100 type semi-auto
( 5 ) AR 180 type semi-auto
( 6 ) Argentine L.S.R. semi-auto
( 7 ) Australian Automatic Arms SAR type semi-auto
( 8 ) Auto-Ordnance Thompson M1 and 1927 semi-automatics
( 9 ) Barrett light .50 cal. semi-auto
(10) Beretta AR70 type semi-auto
(11) Bushmaster semi-auto rifle
(12) Calico models M-100 and M-900
(13) CIS SR 88 type semi-auto
(14) Claridge HI TEC C-9 carbines
(15) Colt AR-15, CAR-15, and all imitations except Colt AR-15 Sporter H-BAR rifle
(16) Daewoo MAX 1 and MAX 2, aka AR 100, 110C, K-1, and K-2
(17) Dragunov Chinese made semi-auto
(18) Famas semi-auto (.223 caliber)
(19) Feather AT-9 semi-auto
(20) FN LAR and FN FAL assault rifle
(21) FNC semi-auto type carbine
(22) F.I.E./Franchi LAW 12 and SPAS 12 assault shotgun
(23) Steyr-AUG-SA semi-auto
(24) Galil models AR and ARM semi-auto
(25) Heckler and KOCH HK-91 A3, HK-93 A2, HK-94 A2 and A3
(26) Holmes model 88 shotgun
(27) Avtomat Kalashnikov semiautomatic rifle in any format
(28) Manchester Arms "Commando" MK-45, MK-9
(29) Mandell TAC-1 semi-auto carbine
(30) Mossberg model 500 Bullpup assault shotgun
(31) Sterling Mark 6 (32) P.A.W.S. carbine
(33) Ruger mini-14 folding stock model (.223 caliber)
(34) SIG 550/551 assault rifle (.223 caliber)
(35) SKS with detachable magazine
(36) AP-74 Commando type semi-auto
(37) Springfield Armory BM-59, SAR-48, G3, SAR-3, M-21 sniper rifle, M1A, excluding
the M1 Garand
(38) Street sweeper assault type shotgun
(39) Striker 12 assault shotgun in all formats
(40) Unique F11 semi-auto type
(41) Daewoo USAS 12 semi-auto shotgun
(42) UZI 9mm carbine or rifle
(43) Valmet M-76 and M-78 semi-auto
(44) Weaver Arms "Nighthawk" semi-auto carbine or
(45) Wilkinson Arms 9mm semi-auto "Terry".

technically, the only true HBAR exempted would be an actual Colt sporter HBAR.....but various dealers get various explanations on what is and isn't "regulated" when inquiring to various people. You're going to have to call around to dealers and see what rifles they are able to sell you as an unregulated ar.

 

[aalmy]

for pistons, ure looking at LWRC and being 21 to have it. Pretty much all the rest are incomplete retrofits and suffer from various design flaws such as carrier tilt and premature wear in the upper. If you're going to go with a piston 5.56, go for one designed from the ground up as a piston system like the SCAR or ACR that you can get as non-regulated rifles. If you want an AR, DI is the proven system...few companies make piston uppers without problems. As for cleaning the bolt being hard....

...but seriously, a good nylon brush and some quality solvent and you're gtg in very short time. The biggest trick is to just keep the bolt wet in the first place. It doesn't allow the bolt to get gunked up if it's wet enough to prevent carbon from clumping up on it.
View attachment 40324

Ok, ok... I'm considering DI guns too haha

Is there any carbine style(i.e. collapsible stock 16" barrel) HBARs (with a flat top receiver) out there that are a decent price, i.e. ~$1000 or less that I should be considering, because RRA are hard to find in stock and can take a long time to get from RRA. So any others out there you recommend?

 

[smokey]

Ok, ok... I'm considering DI guns too haha

Is there any carbine style(i.e. collapsible stock 16" barrel) HBARs (with a flat top receiver) out there that are a decent price, i.e. ~$1000 or less that I should be considering, because RRA are hard to find in stock and can take a long time to get from RRA. So any others out there you recommend?

Thing to keep in mind also when looking if possible. Mid-length gas systems are better tailored to 16" barrels. As you move further down the barrel, pressures aren't as high. Basically gas ports are more forgiving the further out you go depending on barrel length and dwell time. A mid-length gas system on a 16" barrel will give you:
1) more rail- for better support hand extension, mounting real-estate for add-ons, cooler look
2) longer parts life- it's gentler on your upper and bcg since it's receiving less of a sharp impulse and will wear them less
3) less recoil- mid-length systems in 16" barrels recoil less than carbine gas systems
4) BAYO!!- mid-length systems allow for bayonet mounts you'd find on a rifle length gun since the correct amount of barrel is forward of the gas block.