Why no smokeless?

[CaptainVane]

I ask this out of curiosity and not because I would ever do it.
With modern metallurgy, why are we warned to never load smokeless powder in them?
Are these pistols inherently weaker than comparable modern revolvers?

 

[ken792]

If you’re referring to Italian made cap and ball revolvers, they’re only proofed for black powder and they apparently are made of softer steel than their cartridge firing counterparts, which are also proofed for smokeless to CIP standards. They’re not made to the full extent of modern metallurgy.

If you want to fire smokeless in the US, either get a factory “conversion” like a Remington 1875 or Colt 1872 or conversion cylinder advertised for smokeless brass cartridges.

In the UK, Westlake Engineering dows make “muzzleloading” revolvers that do take smokeless powder using Czech Alfa frames and barrels. The cylinders are UK made. I think they’ve used Taurus frames and barrels in the past.

I’m not aware of any cap and ball revolvers in the US that can take loose smokeless powder straight into the chamber.

Westlake Engineering - Products

New page

www.westlakeengineering.com

 

[linkstate]

Two main reasons:

BP is measure by volume and smokeless by weight.

Smokeless generates a higher pressure spike than BP.

ETA: When seating a projectile over BP, you don’t want an air gap. The projectile needs to be firmly against the BP which results in some crushing and compressing of the powder. With smokeless you don’t wan’t to crush the powder and compress it.

 

[smdub]

Black powder can develop 10-20+ksi. IN THEORY, you could develop a smokeless load that does not exceed your BP peak pressure. Pressure is pressure to metal. It would not match the ballistics of BP due to the different burn rates.

Smokeless can be dispensed by volume. That is how dippers and powder measures work. The VAST majority of loading works this way. For any given powder you simply need to know the conversion factor. X gr = Y cc.

In theory, you could develop a smokeless powder w/ inert fluffy binders so that it measures equivalent to BP. This is sort of what 777 and Blackhorn are doing.

The warnings to NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER NEVER EVER EVER EVER NEVER NEVER EVER do it is becasue there are too many stupid people that STILL do it in a 1:1 ratio and blow themselves up. That doesn't mean it can't be done safely.

 

[CaptainVane]

Thx, so its not about the gun, it’s about the powder. Not 1 = 1.

 

[smdub]

***NOT*** 1:1 that is for sure!!! Even the fluffiest smokeless like Trailboss would require less than BP. Something potent like H110 would use a *LOT* less.

It may still be about the gun, well, more the design of it. Percussion caps may or may not not set off a smokeless charge reliably. Smokeless is harder to ignite than BP. Don't know, never tried it. The inline muzzle loaders that use 209 primers for sure have enough UMPH to light off a smokeless charge.

 

[ken792]

It’s physically possible to make one, but just no such market in the US.

Two main reasons:

BP is measure by volume and smokeless by weight.

Smokeless generates a higher pressure spike than BP.

ETA: When seating a projectile over BP, you don’t want an air gap. The projectile needs to be firmly against the BP which results in some crushing and compressing of the powder. With smokeless you don’t wan’t to crush the powder and compress it.

The British Westlake smokeless muzzleloader revolver shooters weigh their charges at home into speedloaders so they don’t have to deal with weighing powder on the range.This video shows a plastic speedloader container that charges all six at once. Others use .38 cases to hold the charge plugged with the bullet.

They seat the bullets with an arbor press, so it’s not like they’re just ramming them to the powder. I’m not sure if those cylinders have an internal step to limit how far down the bullet can be seated.

 

[FN509Fan]

1858 New Improved Army from Uberti can handle black powder ball and cap or a conversion to 38 or 45 cal. A conversion is available so that you can shoot either ball & cap or 45 Colts.

 

[Blacksmith101]

Black powder can develop 10-20+ksi. IN THEORY, you could develop a smokeless load that does not exceed your BP peak pressure. Pressure is pressure to metal. It would not match the ballistics of BP due to the different burn rates.

Smokeless can be dispensed by volume. That is how dippers and powder measures work. The VAST majority of loading works this way. For any given powder you simply need to know the conversion factor. X gr = Y cc.

In theory, you could develop a smokeless powder w/ inert fluffy binders so that it measures equivalent to BP. This is sort of what 777 and Blackhorn are doing.

The warnings to NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER NEVER EVER EVER EVER NEVER NEVER EVER do it is becasue there are too many stupid people that STILL do it in a 1:1 ratio and blow themselves up. That doesn't mean it can't be done safely.

Lee Precision VMD's
"VMD is the volume of one grain of gunpowder in cubic centimeters.
To find the volume of a powder charge, multiply the grains of powder by the VMD."
Link to table:

https://leeprecision.com/files/instruct/VMD.pdf

 

[Melnic]

Smokeless burns much slower, especially rifle powders and build up more pressure.
Density is also different and if you were to measure 100grains by volume of a rifle smokeless powder instead of black powder, it would be SOOO much more explosive and build up more pressure and blow your rifle up.

The problem can be that someone thinks they can shoot 100 grains of black powder, then puts in 100grains of smokeless and kaaaabooom.

A 30-06 bullet may be loaded with 45-50 grains (by weight) of smokeless rifle powder, Now put a heavy bullet in front of it (heavier bullet builds more pressure) and then 100 grains of the same powder by volume (which could be 150+ by weight and super ka boom.

There are people who build muzzle loading rifles that use smokeless powder, designed for a certain bullet and certain powder.

There are white hots and BH209 that have very much charactoristics like smokeless and burn very clean. They are still considered smokeless substitutes.

 

[DAVIDMAGNUM]

Black powder can develop 10-20+ksi. IN THEORY, you could develop a smokeless load that does not exceed your BP peak pressure. Pressure is pressure to metal. It would not match the ballistics of BP due to the different burn rates.

Smokeless can be dispensed by volume. That is how dippers and powder measures work. The VAST majority of loading works this way. For any given powder you simply need to know the conversion factor. X gr = Y cc.

In theory, you could develop a smokeless powder w/ inert fluffy binders so that it measures equivalent to BP. This is sort of what 777 and Blackhorn are doing.

The warnings to NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER NEVER EVER EVER EVER NEVER NEVER EVER do it is becasue there are too many stupid people that STILL do it in a 1:1 ratio and blow themselves up. That doesn't mean it can't be done safely.

....or tightly pack the 3 or 4 grains of Bullseye by ramming the ball as deeply as possible.

 

[K31]

Well, for one reason you've got a big hole in the back of your chamber...

 

[Mike OTDP]

The other issue is that smokeless powders have a burn rate very dependent on pressure. Black powder is much less so.

 

[Blacksmith101]

When I run out of BP I will make my own for my BP guns and will save the smokeless for reloading modern cartridge guns until I run out and have to develop BP loads for them.

Link

black powder menu

That link does not include the additional step of compressing the powder into a puck to increase density.

Links:

Compressing Black Powder

Hello, I am having problems getting the weight right on my homemade black powder. I made one batch using 5% dextrin as a binder and just compressing it by hand and then passing it through a screen while the powder was still wet and then allowing it to dry. The wight of this powder for 1/4 tsp...

castboolits.gunloads.com

 

[Pale Ryder]

1858 New Improved Army from Uberti can handle black powder ball and cap or a conversion to 38 or 45 cal. A conversion is available so that you can shoot either ball & cap or 45 Colts.

All the conversion cylinders I have seen advise to use only light or “cowboy” loads. Maybe it’s a combination of psi and use of cheaper softer steels in the replicas.

 

[John from MD]

All the conversion cylinders I have seen advise to use only light or “cowboy” loads. Maybe it’s a combination of psi and use of cheaper softer steels in the replicas.

The replicas are not made of 4130 steel like the conversion cylinders and are rather soft. I think the concern regarding lighter load use is because the frame will stretch.

 

[cantstop]

I think the burn rate is also important. The pressure in (most) smokeless powders increases significantly faster than BP. So the max pressure is achieved quicker. Long rifle powder burns slower than pistol powder, but it isn't anywhere near that of BP. With that said, I haven't reloaded in 25 years (life happens) so YMMV.