WWI French Ruby w/ WWII German Marking

[KH195]

Believe I've stumbled into a real interesting one here, thought I would post it up in case anyone has seen anything like this before. Currently I can't find any other examples marked like this one. This was purchased from the family of a WWII veteran who was a BAR gunner in Co. E, 386th Reg., 97th Infantry Div. in the ETO during the War. According to the family he took this gun/holster (as well as two other pistols) from a wagon of captured/surrendered weapons near the end of the War.

It's a Spanish made "Vesta" Ruby pistol in 7,65 that was purchased by France and issued to their Army during WWI (as indicated by the stars stamped near mag well). What makes it extremely interesting is that it also has a WWII German Eagle/Swastika test proof on the right trigger guard.

To spare anyone interested from reading my lengthy comments/observations on this one more than once, I've started a thread on Jan Still's Gunboads page hoping some experts can weigh in. That thread has has more details and photos. The pistol/holster have several pretty interesting things going on and everything looks really good on this one, especially coming from the family of the veteran. Since I didn't buy it from the vet himself there is always the chance someone is lying (although that seems like a very small chance in this case), hence some of my questions regarding the markings in the other thread. Really hoping to get some more information on this one, looking like it has a very interesting history!

http://luger.gunboards.com/showthre...ot-Ruby-with-WWII-German-Eagle-Swastika-Proof

 

[somd_mustangs]

The firing proof looks ok to me.
A lot of times they are sloppy, unevenly stamped, etc this one looks nice and clear.
Are there other proofs?
Typically there would be one (E/S) on the barrel too, but as indicated on "the other forum" the barrel was probably replaced at some point (?)

Lot of fake stamps out there but haven't seen one for the E/S, plus it's very highly unlikely this is a faked mark.

Regardless, this is an interesting piece especially if you can get something in writing about the history of it and the vet that brought it back.

 

[KH195]

The firing proof looks ok to me.
A lot of times they are sloppy, unevenly stamped, etc this one looks nice and clear.
Are there other proofs?
Typically there would be one (E/S) on the barrel too, but as indicated on "the other forum" the barrel was probably replaced at some point (?)

Lot of fake stamps out there but haven't seen one for the E/S, plus it's very highly unlikely this is a faked mark.

Regardless, this is an interesting piece especially if you can get something in writing about the history of it and the vet that brought it back.

Yeah I don't know that I've ever seen a fake E/S stamp, tons of whacky looking fake WaA stamps but those are usually easy to spot. This E/S is very sharp and clear and looks the age of the gun. No other proofs on the barrel that I see...but that is one of the other interesting things about it. The original (and matching) assembly number was lined out and the last three of the serial stamped below it. That's what makes me think this saw some type of repair or rework while in the hands of the Germans. One would think the French would know the numbering system on their own guns and not restamp an already matching barrel. The E/S appears in the exact location on CZ-24 pistols believed to have been sent back for repair under German occupation, so it would seem logical to appear on other guns as well.

 

[highli99]

Such a cool gun! A Ruby will the first C&R pistol i buy when i get my C&R FFL. Yours is beautiful and a very cool story to go along with it. The German marks make it very unique.

 

[KH195]

Such a cool gun! A Ruby will the first C&R pistol i buy when i get my C&R FFL. Yours is beautiful and a very cool story to go along with it. The German marks make it very unique.

Thanks, it is neat to think of all the places this one saw. Made in Spain, sent to France for WWI, captured by the Germans, surrendered and brought back to the US...quite the story!

Here is a photo of the vet as well.

 

[highli99]

Thanks, it is neat to think of all the places this one saw. Made in Spain, sent to France for WWI, captured by the Germans, surrendered and brought back to the US...quite the story!

Here is a photo of the vet as well.

awesome photo! Neat to see one taken at the time as well.

 

[Machodoc]

As a quality firearm, they were rather lacking--pretty much expected to make it through 1K rounds safely, then bets were off. That was all that was required of them at the time, and usually far more than was needed. That said, it's one of the things that makes them not only affordable, but also interesting to a subset of collectors.

I don't think that the families of the veterans (or the late veterans themselves) necessarily lie about guns like these. Sometimes the vets, as they got older, "embroidered" their stories a bit, but that doesn't seem to be the case here. It's not like he claimed to have taken it from a general, or anything. What seems to happen more often is that the family doesn't remember the story correctly.

Documentation from the vet or from the military is always a big plus. Sadly, anything else is just a story that may be 100% true, or not ... no way to tell.

 

[mawkie]

Sooo interesting! Agree that the marks look vintage and period correct. I'm not into or own Rubys but this one would be welcome in my collection if I ran across it.
When it comes to the application of fake marks one thing I ask myself is "Where's the profit in it?" Makes sense to tart up a Garand or Luger where there's huge demand and potential for turning a big profit. But to mark up a Ruby doesn't make as much sense to me. Plus the fact that it's stayed in the GIs family makes it highly unlikely that it's been messed with in any fashion.
Neat find!

 

[Machodoc]

When it comes to the application of fake marks one thing I ask myself is "Where's the profit in it?" Makes sense to tart up a Garand or Luger where there's huge demand and potential for turning a big profit. But to mark up a Ruby doesn't make as much sense to me. Plus the fact that it's stayed in the GIs family makes it highly unlikely that it's been messed with in any fashion.
Neat find!

^^^ This!