Ted Nugent anti-Semitic ???

[usa259]

I don't see the issue with Nugents post. I think he pretty clearly is saying that those people pictured are behind gun control...

 

[fred333]

Nugent offered the same reminder as Ph.D. Stephen P. Halbrook, but not as eloquently ...

And many of our modern "gun control" laws were taken verbatim from those written in Germany. Halbrook discusses it in the book.
As for Ted's facebook posting....all I can say is he's right about one thing: Jews (of which I'm one) need to curb the anti-American zealots amongst them just like Muslims need to curb theirs.

 

[inkd]

I don't think what he said was anti-semetic and I really don't care for Nugent at all.

 

[erwos]

I don't see the issue with Nugents post. I think he pretty clearly is saying that those people pictured are behind gun control...

You're missing the context. This is the sort of anti-Semitic tripe that I'd expect to find at Stormfront. Put Jews in every spot on the image, mix in a little Israel-controls-America via the Israeli flag icons, put in a nice little caption "asking" about the blame for gun control, and you've got the usual neo-Nazi BS. That some of you cannot recognize it is disturbing, but based on what I've seen from MDS over the years, hardly surprising. It takes a real level of willful ignorance about discrimination of other people to ignore what this poster is pushing.

I have no idea if Nugent is honestly a Jew-hater or not, but what he posted up may as well have been Nazi-era anti-Jewish propaganda. His half-assed apology was the intellectual equivalent of "well, I have a black friend, so I can't be a racist". I'd fire him for being an incompetent at PR, if nothing else.

FFS, it has Mike Bloomberg listed as "Israeli 9/11 agent", Rahm Emanuel as an IDF vet, and Alan Dershowitz as a "Israel Firster". WTF is it going to take you guys to see this is clearly material that is designed to attack Jews?

 

[fred333]

His half-assed apology was the intellectual equivalent of "well, I have a black friend, so I can't be a racist".

....'cept he left out the "I have a Jewish friend" part...

 

[DC-W]

You're missing the context. This is the sort of anti-Semitic tripe that I'd expect to find at Stormfront. Put Jews in every spot on the image, mix in a little Israel-controls-America via the Israeli flag icons, put in a nice little caption "asking" about the blame for gun control, and you've got the usual neo-Nazi BS. That some of you cannot recognize it is disturbing, but based on what I've seen from MDS over the years, hardly surprising. It takes a real level of willful ignorance about discrimination of other people to ignore what this poster is pushing. I have no idea if Nugent is honestly a Jew-hater or not, but what he posted up may as well have been Nazi-era anti-Jewish propaganda. His half-assed apology was the intellectual equivalent of "well, I have a black friend, so I can't be a racist". I'd fire him for being an incompetent at PR, if nothing else. FFS, it has Mike Bloomberg listed as "Israeli 9/11 agent", Rahm Emanuel as an IDF vet, and Alan Dershowitz as a "Israel Firster". WTF is it going to take you guys to see this is clearly material that is designed to attack Jews?

I'm with ya.

If Alan Gura -- the Israeli-born civil rights litigator we have to thank for arguing and winning Heller finds it gross, I think we should be right there with him.

 

[TheGunnyRet]

Liberal association tactics, clearly don't examine the real reason for the comment just add bigotry into the mix to create more unfounded controversy...from what I see every individual in the picture is an Anti-Gun zealot which happen to be Jewish...and Ted just happened to point it out...

 

[wolfwood]

I think that there is a real issue in this country with conflating antisemitism and anti-Zionism. I personally believe that our ties to Israel has altered our foreign policy detrimentally and has resulted in a American lives being lost in conflicts we should not have been involved in. I also believe that neither side has clean hands in the Palestinian/Israeli conflict and as long as that is the case we should support neither side outside of humanitarian assistance.

Does that make me antisemitic? I don't think so. The issue I see and this is a especially a large problem within the Jewish community is that being pro-Zionism is conflated and deemed necessary and equivalent to being pro-Judaism. Many young Jews are intellectually bullied into supporting Israel because they are told to do otherwise is a betrayal of their ethnic identity. That is a real problem that needs to be addressed. A whole generation of Jewish Americans often find themselves alienated or ostracized because they disagree with Israel's foreign policy. Americans should not feel they are betraying their religion simply because they do not support the actions of a foreign government.

That being said we should view Nugent's comments through a critical lens and have a dialog regarding whether his comments where antisemitic or perhaps simply anti Zionist. I don't know. I hope Nugent speaks up in the near future. Perhaps it will open a dialog.

 

[erwos]

Liberal association tactics, clearly don't examine the real reason for the comment just add bigotry into the mix to create more unfounded controversy...from what I see every individual in the picture is an Anti-Gun zealot which happen to be Jewish...and Ted just happened to point it out...

Yeah, and it's an accident that they're all Jewish. And that the captions on the pictures play up anti-Jewish stereotypes. Right.

I think that there is a real issue in this country with conflating antisemitism and anti-Zionism. I personally believe that are ties to Israel has altered the course of our foreign policy detrimentally and has resulted in a American lives being lost in conflicts we should not have been involved in. I also believe that neither side has clean hands in the Palestinian/Israeli conflict and as long as that is the case we should support neither side outside of humanitarian assistance.

Which is a perfectly reasonable political belief. It becomes anti-Semitism when you start accusing Jews of putting Israel's interests first and being more loyal to Israel than the US. Maybe people are unaware, but "Jews aren't real citizens" is an anti-Semitic ploy that has been used since the diaspora... the existence of Israel has simply made it a little easier to propagate.

 

[fred333]

Liberal association tactics, clearly don't examine the real reason for the comment just add bigotry into the mix to create more unfounded controversy...from what I see every individual in the picture is an Anti-Gun zealot which happen to be Jewish...and Ted just happened to point it out...

I see your point, which is valid. But there're far more non-Jewish anti-gun zealots who didn't make Ted's meme. The question is why?

On the other hand, to be fair, the ratio of Jews who're anti-gun vs anti-gun Christians opens other questions (I already know the answer: most American Jews have leftist politics). But I 'spose that's another thread.

 

[wolfwood]

Yeah, and it's an accident that they're all Jewish. And that the captions on the pictures play up anti-Jewish stereotypes. Right.


Which is a perfectly reasonable political belief. It becomes anti-Semitism when you start accusing Jews of putting Israel's interests first and being more loyal to Israel than the US. Maybe people are unaware, but "Jews aren't real citizens" is an anti-Semitic ploy that has been used since the diaspora... the existence of Israel has simply made it a little easier to propagate.

Sure but on the other hand I have seen Jewish Americans notably Paul Wolfowitz, the chief architect for the Iraq War, play the victim card when suggestions that he did not put America first when pushing for the Iraq War. Did he push for the war to line the pockets of his corporate interests or because Netanyhu lobbied hard for the war or maybe a little of both? I don't know. I do know that those are fair questions and if I was questioning a Chinese American official with ties to China who was promoting a war that benefited China a question of racism would not be brought up.

People that promote or advocate the position Jews are suspect as a class are bigots. However when there is very specific evidence a specific person has ties to Israel it is not antisemitic to question their motives when their foreign policy manifestly benefit Israel over the United States. I don't fault Israel mind you. I think they take the position that it is better for U.S. soldiers to die and U.S. dollars to be spent to secure Israeli interests rather than Israeli sons and dollars. That is the position any functioning nation state should take.
However when I hear the drums of war being beat to invade Libya because our ill thought out bombing campaign which Israel lobbied for has put ISIS in power I think to myself how about some else's sons and daughters do the hard work for once.

 

[Rack&Roll]

I really don't care about anybody's religious practices. I do care when Maryland freedoms are under endless, unrelenting attack from voters who won't stop advocating for government control over every aspect of life.

I do not ask for my political opponents to pose for group photos, but in Montgomery County they do so without any apology or or apparent irony:

 

[wolfwood]

Alan Gottlieb, a leading gun rights activist and founder of the Second Amendment Foundation (SAF), says, “as a man of the Jewish faith,” he finds Nugent’s remarks “appalling” and a setback to the “cause.” Gottleib stopped short of calling for Nugent’s removal from the NRA’s board — “I don’t get involved in their internal policies,” he says — but added, “It’s something they should be speaking up on.”
“This is an NRA problem,” says SAF’s Gottlieb. “All of us outside of the [organization] should condemn what Ted Nugent said.”

http://www.thetrace.org/2016/02/ted-nugent-nra-anti-semetic-comments/

 

[fred333]

However when I hear the drums of war being beat to invade Libya because our ill thought out bombing campaign which Israel lobbied for has put ISIS in power I think to myself how about some else's sons and daughters do the hard work for once.

Consider this: ISIS came to power out of a vacuum created by our retreat as the central player in the Middle East. Further, our (and Israel's) failure to've taken on Iran 10 years ago (before they had the material to construct the bomb) means we'll be dealing with another North Korea in the future. World politics're messy. Pay now (on your timetable) or you pay later (on your enemy's). History demonstrates that world powers don't get to opt out of the world's follies.

 

[wolfwood]

Consider this: ISIS came to power out of a vacuum created by our retreat as the central power player in the Middle East. Further, our (and Israel's) failure to've taken on Iran 10 years ago (before they had the material to construct the bomb) means we'll be dealing with another North Korea in the future. World politics're messy. Pay now (on your timetable) or you pay later (on your enemy's). History demonstrates that world powers don't get to opt out of the world's follies.

ISIS came about as a direct result of the Iraq war destabilizing the whole region. Had we not invaded to begin with ISIS would not have formed.
I frankly am not convinced that ISIS is much a threat to the United States anyhow. What if we left them alone? Then they'd be the Saudi's problem or the Turks. Or dear god the Israeli's, Saudi's and Turks might have to put aside their differences and work together.
ISIS is not exactly invading the U.S. I know the fall back position. Remember 9/11. Well blowing up people half away across the world does not do a nbit as much as making sure are internal security is up to snuff and out intelligence assets are reporting.

If Iran gets the bomb so what. Has Pakistan used theirs? Has India? The government of Iran operates as a rational actor. And I would argue their government only leans extremist when we mettle with their internal politics. Who got rid of the Shah? We did. Which is what turned the government into a theocracy.

 

[Rack&Roll]

I've been baffled all my adult life about people who do not accept the fact that the Bill of Rights is not ala carte.

I've been baffled all my adult life about why a member of any group that has suffered attacks, be they Armenians, Kurds, or Irish refuse to learn the lessons of history and advocate disarmament in ANY fashion, not only for themselves but for ALL OTHERS.

It's just non-sensical. Someone explain this?

 

[fred333]

It's just non-sensical. Someone explain this?

It's a natural inability of humans to face things that're too horrible to process. Better to ignore than deal with.
Some reading material on the subject of why people deceive themselves into believing all's well when it isn't.

 

[fred333]

If Iran gets the bomb so what. Has Pakistan used theirs? Has India? The government of Iran operates as a rational actor. And I would argue their government only leans extremist when we mettle with their internal politics. Who got rid of the Shah? We did. Which is what turned the government into a theocracy.

Have India, Pakistan, Israel, Russia declared war against us? That's the difference. When an animal preaches violence towards me, I react. Discounting the words of violent animals with expansionist aims results in 9/11, the holocaust/WWII and memes like this:

 

[wolfwood]

Have India, Pakistan, Israel, Russia declared war against us? That's the difference. When an animal preaches violence towards me, I react. Discounting the words of an animal results in 9/11, the holocaust/WWII and memes like this:

When did Iran declare war against us?

 

[Rack&Roll]

Also, why is this thread wandering from 2A politics to foreign policy?

I wish we could stay on topic about having full, fair and honest discussions about the views and organizing principles of our political opponents.

No problem setting aside Ted Nugent as an distractive bombast but we have to be clear-eyed about any organized funded opposition.