Best SHTF firearms solution for the elderly

John from MD · Jan 18, 2022

K31 said:
This thing. Shipped to your door. Grandma and granddad already know how to use it because it's what they used back in the day.

Will put the fear of God into any unannounced visitors.

https://americanguncraft.com/product/diablo-break-open-12-gauge-pistol-black-grips/

Hmmm, have you ever heard of a fellow by the name of Newton? It seems like he came up with a third law that says "old people shooting something like that may wind as dead as the person in front of it." :lol:

Bullfrog · Jan 18, 2022

cantstop said:
From the video: "My wrists always hurt, so who cares."

I would say that sums up the argument against any pistol for an elderly person that has never owned a gun.

Like claymores and RGA-86's, I didn't take that as a serious suggestion.

But I mostly agree about handguns in this particular case. Grip strength and wrist strength is usually the first thing to go.

teratos · Jan 18, 2022

K31 said:
This thing. Shipped to your door. Grandma and granddad already know how to use it because it's what they used back in the day.

Will put the fear of God into any unannounced visitors.

https://americanguncraft.com/product/diablo-break-open-12-gauge-pistol-black-grips/

Damn you. Now I want one….for the next Brady Convention.

Pale Ryder · Jan 18, 2022

Bullfrog said:
Por que?

You made me curious.

A quick look shows 000 buck as a common .410 load... which is either 4 or 5 .36" pellets at ~1000-1125 fps.

That's roughly equivalent to 4-5 rounds of .380+P, or higher per trigger pull.

Checking a few test videos, even a short barrel .410 is going to put all 5 in a pie sized target at inside-the-house distances.

Its not a 12 gauge, but it won't knock the elderly shooter down, and beats the crap out of .22 for effectiveness, simplicity, and reliability.

A lever or pump action .410 full of 000 might be ideal.

00 buck pellets are about half the weight of the .380. Roughly 54 grains. True you have 5, and at across the room distance they will do damage, they don’t have great penetration and shed velocity quickly though. I think for HD they’re a step up from a .22, but I think there are better alternatives.

Bullfrog · Jan 18, 2022

Pale Ryder said:
00 buck pellets are about half the weight of the .380. Roughly 54 grains. True you have 5, and at across the room distance they will do damage, they don’t have great penetration and shed velocity quickly though. I think for HD they’re a step up from a .22, but I think there are better alternatives.

The numbers I was looking at were for 000 buck not 00... so ~70 grains vs 85-95 for .380 JHP... not too far off.

If the manufacturer's speeds (on the 000) and wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.380_ACP) can be trusted, FPS is in the same range.

I take back what I said about .380+P, 000 will have slightly less energy per pellet than standard .380 acp, not slightly more (must have gotten something backwards), but its very close (70÷85×100=82.35%)... and again, 4-5 pellets.

:shrug:

K31 · Jan 19, 2022

John from MD said:
Hmmm, have you ever heard of a fellow by the name of Newton? It seems like he came up with a third law that says "old people shooting something like that may wind as dead as the person in front of it."

No offense if he's a friend of yours, but this Newton sounds like a Soy Boy.

Blacksmith101 · Jan 19, 2022

Now that we have had six pages of everyone's favorite gun how about some thinking of an old gun owner.

I have about 70 years of shooting experience so I am in the age group the OP is interested in and I have a wife of similar age who is at best an occasional shooter, I burn more ammo in a single range session than she has shot her entire life. Most of my friends both shooters and non shooters are in the same age range. Next year I will have been an NRA Instructor for forty years mostly teaching kids but have taught those from under 10 to over 80. As far as recoil goes my favorite handgun is a .45-70 and a good friend who is 84 and recently had back surgery regularly shoots .44 Special because the .44 Magnum was getting to be a "bit much" in his words but I also know and have worked with people who shy at anything bigger than a .22 LR.

Step one take each one to a range individually so neither you or they are distracted or intimidated by others, or find an old guy who shoots to take them if you might be "intimidating". Let each start with a .22 and work their way up with a variety of guns to assess their strength, dexterity, ability. interest, commitment, and recoil sensitivity. Once you know those things you can make some intelligent recommendations.

Some thoughts on old folks and guns. Most won't practice much past initial training unless they discovery it is something they love. Most will never need to shoot it in self defense. If they do need it it will be against a single adversary at most two one of which will run at the first discharge. If the zombie hoard is coming they better hide because they won't stop them no matter what they are shooting. If they do need to shoot it will most likely be either someone entering their bedroom or someone trying to kick in their door. They do not need to clear the house themselves as long as they have a phone stay in place and wait for the cavalry.

I have the choice of a number of types and calibers of guns and practice frequently my wife almost never practices. The guns we have at hand are both .357 magnum revolvers hers is a Ruger I put lighter springs in, but it is still reliable and mine is a S&W, both have 6" barrels. When I get her to practice she uses .38 Special mild loads but the gun is kept loaded with .357 Magnums which she has also practiced with but she will practice more with Specials she can definitely hit center mass at house distances. I practice with both. With adrenaline pumping you won't notice you are shooting .357's.

Why a revolver? Because you don't have to rack the slide, you don't have to remove the safety, it won't stovepipe if you weak wrist it, and you don't have to clear it if you have a misfire, just pull the trigger again. All good things for people who won't practice a lot or a little foggy in the middle of the night.

Why a 6" barrel? Because a longer sight radius, less muzzle flip, and instinctively you are more likely to point a longer barrel accurately at the target. Try it point something short then point something long at the same spot.

Why a .357? Because you will be more likely to practice because you can use .38 Special and when you age and the recoil of a .357 starts becoming a problem just switch to .38's.

Why only 6 rounds rather than 10 or 15 or 50? If you can't solve your problem with six rounds of .357 at 15 feet (she also has 6) you probably won't solve it with more but I keep a couple of speed loaders and a .44 Magnum also with speed loaders handy in case.

Why a handgun rather than a long gun? Try sitting up in bed and deploying a long gun effectively. For long gun as backup for home defense for most people I recommend a pump shotgun. For the younger more robust types a 12 gauge, for women and smaller framed people a 20 gauge and for those who may not be able to handle the twenty even with low recoil loads a .410 beats a .22 IMHO. The reason I recommend a shotgun over a rifle is total weight of lead thrown and number of holes made vs over penetration and the intimidation factors of racking the gun, large bore barrels, big flashes and lots of noise all of which tend to make people think twice about hanging around.

Most important get them something they will occasionally practice with and invite them to practice with you. Make them understand they don't have to be Rambo only shoot if they have to and let the cavalry handle the rest.

As far as the HQL goes there are plenty of .357 Magnums that are over 50 years old, made before 1972, that do not need a HQL to purchase But you would probably need to make sure they were in good working order because a new gun owner would not know what to look for.

Alea Jacta Est · Jan 19, 2022

Blacksmith101 said:
Now that we have had six pages of everyone's favorite gun how about some thinking of an old gun owner.

I have about 70 years of shooting experience so I am in the age group the OP is interested in and I have a wife of similar age who is at best an occasional shooter, I burn more ammo in a single range session than she has shot her entire life. Most of my friends both shooters and non shooters are in the same age range. Next year I will have been an NRA Instructor for forty years mostly teaching kids but have taught those from under 10 to over 80. As far as recoil goes my favorite handgun is a .45-70 and a good friend who is 84 and recently had back surgery regularly shoots .44 Special because the .44 Magnum was getting to be a "bit much" in his words but I also know and have worked with people who shy at anything bigger than a .22 LR.

Step one take each one to a range individually so neither you or they are distracted or intimidated by others, or find an old guy who shoots to take them if you might be "intimidating". Let each start with a .22 and work their way up with a variety of guns to assess their strength, dexterity, ability. interest, commitment, and recoil sensitivity. Once you know those things you can make some intelligent recommendations.

Some thoughts on old folks and guns. Most won't practice much past initial training unless they discovery it is something they love. Most will never need to shoot it in self defense. If they do need it it will be against a single adversary at most two one of which will run at the first discharge. If the zombie hoard is coming they better hide because they won't stop them no matter what they are shooting. If they do need to shoot it will most likely be either someone entering their bedroom or someone trying to kick in their door. They do not need to clear the house themselves as long as they have a phone stay in place and wait for the cavalry.

I have the choice of a number of types and calibers of guns and practice frequently my wife almost never practices. The guns we have at hand are both .357 magnum revolvers hers is a Ruger I put lighter springs in, but it is still reliable and mine is a S&W, both have 6" barrels. When I get her to practice she uses .38 Special mild loads but the gun is kept loaded with .357 Magnums which she has also practiced with but she will practice more with Specials she can definitely hit center mass at house distances. I practice with both. With adrenaline pumping you won't notice you are shooting .357's.

Why a revolver? Because you don't have to rack the slide, you don't have to remove the safety, it won't stovepipe if you weak wrist it, and you don't have to clear it if you have a misfire, just pull the trigger again. All good things for people who won't practice a lot or a little foggy in the middle of the night.

Why a 6" barrel? Because a longer sight radius, less muzzle flip, and instinctively you are more likely to point a longer barrel accurately at the target. Try it point something short then point something long at the same spot.

Why a .357? Because you will be more likely to practice because you can use .38 Special and when you age and the recoil of a .357 starts becoming a problem just switch to .38's.

Why only 6 rounds rather than 10 or 15 or 50? If you can't solve your problem with six rounds of .357 at 15 feet (she also has 6) you probably won't solve it with more but I keep a couple of speed loaders and a .44 Magnum also with speed loaders handy in case.

Why a handgun rather than a long gun? Try sitting up in bed and deploying a long gun effectively. For long gun as backup for home defense for most people I recommend a pump shotgun. For the younger more robust types a 12 gauge, for women and smaller framed people a 20 gauge and for those who may not be able to handle the twenty even with low recoil loads a .410 beats a .22 IMHO. The reason I recommend a shotgun over a rifle is total weight of lead thrown and number of holes made vs over penetration and the intimidation factors of racking the gun, large bore barrels, big flashes and lots of noise all of which tend to make people think twice about hanging around.

Most important get them something they will occasionally practice with and invite them to practice with you. Make them understand they don't have to be Rambo only shoot if they have to and let the cavalry handle the rest.

As far as the HQL goes there are plenty of .357 Magnums that are over 50 years old, made before 1972, that do not need a HQL to purchase But you would probably need to make sure they were in good working order because a new gun owner would not know what to look for.

With respect sir…nice bonafides.

YOU are not normal. Your quals are shit hot (very good).

I buy your “failure to train” after initial qualification 110%.

I’d offer that the uninitiated will freak in an enclosed and likely dark space following firing any gun, never mind a hand gun, never mind a revolver. Indeed, I’m beginning to think this might be a trick question with no “right” answer. With props to the op/new guy for generating a great discussion that’s enjoying some thoughtful input (except for the useless plick who said claymore…). :-)

After reading the thread and having endured my own aged father’s similar issues, I think there’s merit in the PCC route and or a nice little .410. I’m not off my suggestion of a G19 with a lighter than factory spec trigger (yeah, they are butt plug ugly guns but they excel at going bang every time).

Back to Blacksmith101—— once again, I’m humbled by the breadth and depth of our community experience and knowledge. BZ

Biggfoot44 · Jan 19, 2022

For many years I disdained .410 for HD , but a cpl things have happened within the last decade or so :

Those absolutely pointless , and near useless .45 Colt/ .410 Revolvers became very popular .

So much so , multiple mfgs developed SD ammo just for them .

While the .45/ .410 Revolvers are still pointless , when fired from a real Shotgun , the 00 and 000 have good possibilities , least way out as far as all 4 or 5 pellets stay on target,

.22lr doesn't totally suck , From a Rifle . Yeah , yeah rimfire reliability . Sometimes wirh severe enough limitations , you have to roll with least worst option .

Marlin 60 is lightweight , and easy for handling by virtually anyone who can stand upright w/o support . Load it for them in advance ( with " normal " 36-38gr HS HP ) . Within 17 rds , they will have either driven off average amateur home invaders , or already been killed by skilled professionals in force .

outrider58 · Jan 19, 2022

Worsley said:
Agreed, that’s why I was thinking 357, use 38s but have option to shoot something heavier. Revolver easy to load, easy to operate.

^^^This is the right answer. :thumbsup:

Uncle Duke · Jan 19, 2022

Blacksmith101 said:
Now that we have had six pages of everyone's favorite gun how about some thinking of an old gun owner.

I have about 70 years of shooting experience so I am in the age group the OP is interested in and I have a wife of similar age who is at best an occasional shooter, I burn more ammo in a single range session than she has shot her entire life. Most of my friends both shooters and non shooters are in the same age range. Next year I will have been an NRA Instructor for forty years mostly teaching kids but have taught those from under 10 to over 80. As far as recoil goes my favorite handgun is a .45-70 and a good friend who is 84 and recently had back surgery regularly shoots .44 Special because the .44 Magnum was getting to be a "bit much" in his words but I also know and have worked with people who shy at anything bigger than a .22 LR.

Step one take each one to a range individually so neither you or they are distracted or intimidated by others, or find an old guy who shoots to take them if you might be "intimidating". Let each start with a .22 and work their way up with a variety of guns to assess their strength, dexterity, ability. interest, commitment, and recoil sensitivity. Once you know those things you can make some intelligent recommendations.

Some thoughts on old folks and guns. Most won't practice much past initial training unless they discovery it is something they love. Most will never need to shoot it in self defense. If they do need it it will be against a single adversary at most two one of which will run at the first discharge. If the zombie hoard is coming they better hide because they won't stop them no matter what they are shooting. If they do need to shoot it will most likely be either someone entering their bedroom or someone trying to kick in their door. They do not need to clear the house themselves as long as they have a phone stay in place and wait for the cavalry.

I have the choice of a number of types and calibers of guns and practice frequently my wife almost never practices. The guns we have at hand are both .357 magnum revolvers hers is a Ruger I put lighter springs in, but it is still reliable and mine is a S&W, both have 6" barrels. When I get her to practice she uses .38 Special mild loads but the gun is kept loaded with .357 Magnums which she has also practiced with but she will practice more with Specials she can definitely hit center mass at house distances. I practice with both. With adrenaline pumping you won't notice you are shooting .357's.

Why a revolver? Because you don't have to rack the slide, you don't have to remove the safety, it won't stovepipe if you weak wrist it, and you don't have to clear it if you have a misfire, just pull the trigger again. All good things for people who won't practice a lot or a little foggy in the middle of the night.

Why a 6" barrel? Because a longer sight radius, less muzzle flip, and instinctively you are more likely to point a longer barrel accurately at the target. Try it point something short then point something long at the same spot.

Why a .357? Because you will be more likely to practice because you can use .38 Special and when you age and the recoil of a .357 starts becoming a problem just switch to .38's.

Why only 6 rounds rather than 10 or 15 or 50? If you can't solve your problem with six rounds of .357 at 15 feet (she also has 6) you probably won't solve it with more but I keep a couple of speed loaders and a .44 Magnum also with speed loaders handy in case.

Why a handgun rather than a long gun? Try sitting up in bed and deploying a long gun effectively. For long gun as backup for home defense for most people I recommend a pump shotgun. For the younger more robust types a 12 gauge, for women and smaller framed people a 20 gauge and for those who may not be able to handle the twenty even with low recoil loads a .410 beats a .22 IMHO. The reason I recommend a shotgun over a rifle is total weight of lead thrown and number of holes made vs over penetration and the intimidation factors of racking the gun, large bore barrels, big flashes and lots of noise all of which tend to make people think twice about hanging around.

Most important get them something they will occasionally practice with and invite them to practice with you. Make them understand they don't have to be Rambo only shoot if they have to and let the cavalry handle the rest.

As far as the HQL goes there are plenty of .357 Magnums that are over 50 years old, made before 1972, that do not need a HQL to purchase But you would probably need to make sure they were in good working order because a new gun owner would not know what to look for.

Lots of thought going on here.

Worsley · Jan 19, 2022

Uncle Duke said:
Lots of thought going on here.

Agreed, my original thought was .357 revolver and lever action for versatility of shooting mild 38s and .357 if needed. After reading many posts I was leaning 22LR and now back to revolver and shotgun.

Bottom line, This weekend they will shoot the many firearms recommended in this thread.

Uncle Duke · Jan 19, 2022

Worsley said:
Agreed, my original thought was .357 revolver and lever action for versatility of shooting mild 38s and .357 if needed. After reading many posts I was leaning 22LR and now back to revolver and shotgun.

Bottom line, This weekend they will shoot the many firearms recommended in this thread.

NOW you're on the right track.

You have 4 different folks to consider. Each will have their own distinct characteristics. You might find that you need to come up with 4 entirely different solutions. Or some variation thereof.

There is no "best." There's zero sense in trying to chase unicorns. There's most definitely however, a best answer for each member of your family.

You'll never know, until you go. Good luck!

outrider58 · Jan 19, 2022

Uncle Duke said:
NOW you're on the right track.

You have 4 different folks to consider. Each will have their own distinct characteristics. You might find that you need to come up with 4 entirely different solutions. Or some variation thereof.

There is no "best." There's zero sense in trying to chase unicorns. There's most definitely however, a best answer for each member of your family.

You'll never know, until you go. Good luck!

Definitely. There is no 'one size fits all' when it comes to guns.

Seagrave1963 · Jan 19, 2022

Worsley said:
Bottom line, This weekend they will shoot the many firearms recommended in this thread.

Solid plan OP!

Kman · Jan 19, 2022

Take them to the range and offer instruction and sampling of various firearms.

Unfortunately, they may think they want something with no informed basis.

I've known a few folks who think they want a shorty 12g or magnum hand cannon until I invite them to try them on for size.

Inigoes · Jan 19, 2022

Worsley said:
Bottom line, This weekend they will shoot the many firearms recommended in this thread.

Don't forget the RGA-86 and MP40! :beer:

Uncle Duke · Jan 19, 2022

Kman said:
Take them to the range and offer instruction and sampling of various firearms.

Unfortunately, they may think they want something with no informed basis.

I've known a few folks who think they want a shorty 12g or magnum hand cannon until I invite them to try them on for size.

Funny how that works, isn't it?

I just LOVE to shoot that mule kicking son of a bitch. (Pssssstt...think I'll just scratch this range trip, and leave it in the closet.)

K31 · Jan 19, 2022

Mom really loves the Diablo. She says all she has to do is bring it out and unwanted guests are like Biden at a Papal audience.

She says that those punks have given her the greenest lawn in the neighborhood.

Michigander08 · Jan 19, 2022

K31 said:
Mom really loves the Diablo. She says all she has to do is bring it out and unwanted guests are like Biden at a Papal audience.

She says that those punks have given her the greenest lawn in the neighborhood.

Your mom is pistol qualified!

Some people her age can't even keep their fingers out of the trigger when in the state of "not ready to shoot". Trust me. I have been there. It was very frustrated to teach them. I explained and kept telling them over and over; index finger outside if you are not ready to shoot. For some reason, they keep resting finger on trigger! Arghhhh...that is not a finger rest!

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