SB387 "Public Safety - Untraceable Firearms" - The Ban on Private Firearm Making

benton0311 · Jan 25, 2022

teratos said:
Can FFL's serialize a firearm I made?

I don't believe they can.

Has it actually been established that they cannot imprint a serial number on a firearm? Not manufacture but serialize as a completely distinct function. A non-07 cannot manufacture a firearm, and an 07 can't manufacture a firearm that you already manufactured so clearly nobody can manufacture a firearm that's already been made. However, does the law actually say they can't issue a serial number?

We often tie manufacturing and serialization together as two inseparable functions because a manufacturer needs to serialize what they manufacture. In this case, the FFL isn't manufacturing anything, they're just issuing a serial number as directed by the state. The state could grant authority to almost any agency or business to issue a serial number for anything. This is not the manufacturer's serial number, just a serial number.

The state could decide that e-bikes should be registered as motorcycles and then require a VIN to be imprinted after a certain date to facilitate registration. The state could direct the specifications for the VIN for the e-bikes and authorize licensees to imprint and record the VIN. Substitute the words "serial number" with "state compliant ID number," does that change the dynamic?"

I was always under the impression that they could not serialize but then I started thinking more about it and am now questioning earlier assumptions.

rbird7282 · Jan 25, 2022

Brickman301 said:
Hmm, no they are saying no homemade firearms at all. Doesn’t matter if they were made after 1/1/23 or 20 years before.

It seems to me you could build one but you'd have to start with a serialized frame which you'd have to pass a background check to buy.

rbird7282 · Jan 25, 2022

JTH20 said:
If the gun is already serealized then the serial number cant be modified. That's federal law.

If an FFL added the prescribed serial number from this law, they'd be violating federal law.

deleted

babalou · Jan 25, 2022

funny how ghost guns are all over the news. How can their timing always be so perfect? Strange, huh?

JDH146 · Jan 25, 2022

In addition to the Rally in Annapolis today, there is this from the article .

"The members planned to have video meetings with more than 140 of the state’s 188 lawmakers on Wednesday."

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/m...stered-e2-80-98ghost-e2-80-99-guns/ar-AAT8zk6

rseymorejr · Jan 25, 2022

babalou said:
funny how ghost guns are all over the news. How can their timing always be so perfect? Strange, huh?

Amost spooky

BOO!

Bertfish · Jan 25, 2022

babalou said:
funny how ghost guns are all over the news. How can their timing always be so perfect? Strange, huh?

Funny how the kid at that high school the other day "admitted to buying his gun online"

Bertfish · Jan 25, 2022

So what if you milled an 80 then registered it as an SBR? ATF gonna tell you throw it away cause of state law?

Occam · Jan 25, 2022

I heard some WTOP coverage of the dozens (DOZENS!) of people in Annapolis, gathered to wipe out the scourge of these Scary Ghost Guns. Of course they had to interview a "student activist" from a Bethesda high school. She proclaimed, "Students have the right not live in fear of home made guns!"

For F's-F-ing-F-ity-F's sake. It hurts my soul that she's from my alma mater.

Bountied · Jan 25, 2022

Occam said:
I heard some WTOP coverage of the dozens (DOZENS!) of people in Annapolis, gathered to wipe out the scourge of these Scary Ghost Guns. Of course they had to interview a "student activist" from a Bethesda high school. She proclaimed, "Students have the right not live in fear of home made guns!"

For F's-F-ing-F-ity-F's sake. It hurts my soul that she's from my alma mater.

What about the other guns? I guess they don't fear Glock made Glocks?

jcutonilli · Jan 25, 2022

Slackdaddy said:
So, if a hobbyist is going to make a homemade replica of a drop block buffalo rifle,, at what point does He/She take the block of steel to the FFL to be serialized??
Or are they saying NO hobbyist made rifles/pistols after 1/1/23 ??

It depends on the block. If it was MARKETED OR SOLD TO THE PUBLIC TO BECOME OR BE USED AS THE FRAME OR RECEIVER OF A FUNCTIONAL FIREARM ONCE COMPLETED, ASSEMBLED, OR CONVERTED, then it would need to be purchased from an FFL with the serial number already imprinted on the block. If it were just a block then you can wait until just before it REACHED A STAGE IN MANUFACTURE WHERE IT MAY READILY BE COMPLETED, ASSEMBLED, OR CONVERTED TO BE USED AS THE FRAME OR RECEIVER OF A FUNCTIONAL FIREARM.

You can still make them after this year, but they need a serial number before being sold or manufactured depending on the situation.

teratos · Jan 25, 2022

Bertfish said:
So what if you milled an 80 then registered it as an SBR? ATF gonna tell you throw it away cause of state law?

I actually need to know this.

Bertfish · Jan 25, 2022

teratos said:
I actually need to know this.

You were the manufacturer of the SBR. But could you legally manufacture the actual 80?

Fvck Brian Frosh. Should ask him what Soros member tastes like

jcutonilli · Jan 25, 2022

Boxcab said:
My point: the gun is already serialized, before the law goes into effect. It is no longer an unserialized gun.

My point: so how does an FFL serialize this frame? There is no metal (printed using a Nylon blend).

His point is still valid. Under the currently proposed language, the only way a firearm manufactured after 1968 will be legal is if an FFL put the serial number on the gun. The proposed language provides some requirements as to what than number should look like if it was not a manufacturer.

If there is no metal, I believe a small metal plate would need to be embedded into the plastic

rbird7282 · Jan 25, 2022

Bertfish said:
You were the manufacturer of the SBR. But could you legally manufacture the actual 80?

Fvck Brian Frosh. Should ask him what Soros member tastes like

I would think you'd be able to once you have your approved Form 1. You need to serialize an SBR anyway. My guess is that if you could show you had an approved Form 1 then you'd be able to buy an 80 and proceed.
Of course none of these morons in Annapolis have thought about this.

mac1_131 · Jan 25, 2022

This is not the place to help them fix their bad bills. Their are still some snags in the wording.

Better to defeat it, but I fear it will be harder this time.

If you read the proposed ATF regulations, you will see if adopted, it synchronizes with this to allow a regular FFL to engrave an existing build. So all the comments that they can't do this are moot if the proposed ATF regulations are also adopted.

Hope we can find a way to defeat this again.

lazarus · Jan 25, 2022

Also the last. No FFL can comply even if they are allowed to serialize not their firearm. Unless they are keeping it, they can’t put it in their bound book. Or is Maryland now saying all Gunsmiths must get the ATF to grant them an exemption to legally serialize firearms they didn’t make. AND that those gunsmiths must hold the firearm overnight and thus can legally enter it in their bound book?

So much of this proposed law runs counter to existing federal law. FFLs generally can’t comply with it. Which means we can’t legally comply with it.

dblas · Jan 25, 2022

Bertfish said:
So what if you milled an 80 then registered it as an SBR? ATF gonna tell you throw it away cause of state law?

Apples and oranges, because ATF requires you to provide a serial number you created, under federal law.

Boxcab · Jan 25, 2022

jcutonilli said:
His point is still valid. Under the currently proposed language, the only way a firearm manufactured after 1968 will be legal is if an FFL put the serial number on the gun. The proposed language provides some requirements as to what than number should look like if it was not a manufacturer.

If there is no metal, I believe a small metal plate would need to be embedded into the plastic

The Law from above:

4 5–703.
5 (A) A PERSON MAY NOT PURCHASE, RECEIVE, SELL, OFFER TO SELL, OR
6 TRANSFER AN UNFINISHED FRAME OR RECEIVER UNLESS IT IS REQUIRED BY
7 FEDERAL LAW TO BE, AND HAS BEEN, IMPRINTED WITH A SERIAL NUMBER BY A
8 FEDERALLY LICENSED FIREARMS MANUFACTURER OR FEDERALLY LICENSED
9 FIREARMS IMPORTER IN COMPLIANCE WITH ALL FEDERAL LAWS AND REGULATIONS
10 APPLICABLE TO THE MANUFACTURE AND IMPORT OF FIREARMS.
11 (B) ON OR AFTER JANUARY 1, 2023, A PERSON MAY NOT POSSESS A
12 FIREARM UNLESS:
13 (1) THE FIREARM IS REQUIRED BY FEDERAL LAW TO BE, AND HAS
14 BEEN, IMPRINTED BY A FEDERALLY LICENSED FIREARMS MANUFACTURER OR
15 FEDERALLY LICENSED FIREARMS IMPORTER WITH A SERIAL NUMBER IN
16 COMPLIANCE WITH ALL FEDERAL LAWS AND REGULATIONS APPLICABLE TO THE
17 MANUFACTURE AND IMPORT OF FIREARMS; OR
18 (2) THE FIREARM HAS BEEN IMPRINTED BY A FEDERALLY LICENSED
19 FIREARMS DEALER OR OTHER FEDERAL LICENSEE AUTHORIZED TO PROVIDE
20 MARKING SERVICES WITH THE FIRST THREE AND LAST FIVE DIGITS OF THE
21 LICENSEE’S FEDERAL FIREARMS LICENSE NUMBER, FOLLOWED BY A HYPHEN, AND
22 THEN FOLLOWED BY ANOTHER NUMBER.
23 (C) A FEDERALLY LICENSED FIREARMS DEALER OR OTHER FEDERAL
24 LICENSEE AUTHORIZED TO PROVIDE MARKING SERVICES WHO IMPRINTS A FIREARM
25 UNDER SUBSECTION (B)(2) OF THIS SECTION SHALL:
26 (1) IMPRINT THE FIREARM IN COMPLIANCE WITH ALL FEDERAL LAWS
27 AND REGULATIONS APPLICABLE TO AFFIXING SERIAL NUMBERS TO FIREARMS,
28 INCLUDING:
29 (I) MINIMUM SIZE AND DEPTH REQUIREMENTS; AND
30 (II) REQUIREMENTS THAT THE NUMBERS NOT BE READILY
31 SUSCEPTIBLE TO BEING OBLITERATED, ALTERED, OR REMOVED; AND
6 SENATE BILL 387
1 (2) RETAIN RECORDS FOR ALL FIREARMS IMPRINTED IN
2 ACCORDANCE WITH ALL FEDERAL LAWS AND REGULATIONS APPLICABLE TO THE
3 SALE OF A FIREARM.

I am the manufacturer, I am authorized by the ATF to serialize my own creation (though I am not licensed). So, I can legally afix a serial number today. The BOLDED above does not jive with my current ability to serialize per ATF guidelines. A conundrum at least.

The other topic: Current plastic guns are manufactured with a metal block cast (the frame is destroyed in order to remove) in place for a serial number. Not something that can be done for a 3D print. As I read the law above, I don't think you can just glue on a plate and meet the requirements for a 3D version.

They obviously had some help rewriting the proposed law this year, and there is a National effort to get them passed. I sure hope the SCOUS makes a ruling in the next few months that helps to put an end to this type of nonsense.

.

dblas · Jan 25, 2022

Bertfish said:
You were the manufacturer of the SBR. But could you legally manufacture the actual 80?

Fvck Brian Frosh. Should ask him what Soros member tastes like

If you have the skill and the tools, you could manufacture the entire lower receiver out of a block of the appropriate material. So yes, you could create and 80% (and then the entire receiver) on your own.

Once you file the form 1 for the SBR, you, as the manufacturer of the SBR are required to submit a serial number. The question becomes, will MD recognize this Serial number, since the ATF does.

SB387 "Public Safety - Untraceable Firearms" - The Ban on Private Firearm Making

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