Coly OP shaving lead

So I've got a late 1920s 6" Colt OP. When I bought it the dealer said it was a bit out of time. It was noticeable in some hesitation. Sine then I've put probably 150-200 rounds through it. I hadn't noticed it early on, though I am pretty sure I wasn't looking for it. It appears to be shaving a bit of lead. Very small slivers. Still playing with it to see when/how. But I think it is in Single Action only. Or at least on my latest range trip I found 3 slivers on the bench from FMJ rounds and I fired 12 rounds of 125gr FPFMJ and 12 rounds of 158gr SWC. The former I shot all SA and the later all DA. The FPFMJ I had loaded one round, fire. Then loaded 6 and shot the whole cylinder. Then loaded the last 5. So it is possible it is only happening on one chamber if the first shot happened to be the cylinder it is happening on.

I didn't find any lead shavings from the 158gr coated SWC. The couple of other times I've found shavings it seems to be only a small number for the total rounds fired.

In DA it rotates fine and doesn't really seem to get caught up anywhere. In SA it sometimes takes a good second attempt or a strong pull to get the cylinder to finish rotating and hammer to cock (it isn't every chamber and it doesn't even always seem like it is on a particular chamber, but like 1 in 10).

Any thoughts on what might be causing it? From some poking around, I am assuming this is likely beyond my talents to fix. I am a very skilled novice. No Colt experience and it sounds like timing Colts is practically black magic.

Worn hand?

Self help, but I'll still bite on suggestions. I finally ordered Jerry Kunhausen book on DA colts. Ordered a factory "new" hand. I also ordered some stones. I didn't really have proper stones for fitting. Just files and one 300/600 large stone.

Seems to need to be lengthened. No idea if the existing hand ever was. Will follow the guide, but figured I'd throw it out there again. I think when I asked last time with less details the feedback was "hand probably needs to be lengthened".

If that is what the book concurs with, any thoughts? Should I fit the new hand and leave the old one alone. Or Should I try lengthening the existing hand because its already fitted and just needs some light peening it get it back in time. Then if the old one breaks, I'll just fit the new one? I am leaning towards looking over the old hand to see if there are any signs it's been lengthened before. If it doesn't seem like it has been, work on it. If I am in doubt at all, fit the new hand. Would rather bugger the new hand, than to break the old one and then bugger the new one and not have a working gun at all.

Save the old hand. Sometimes they can be lengthened just tad A by peening.
There’s probably a few more checks that could be made that apply to all revolvers that are not make specific.

Yes...the hand needs to be stretched. You have to be very careful in doing so. If the hand has been stretched previously it will need replacing. Any Colt E- or I-frame hand should work but be careful of used hands...they've probably already been stretched. Try Jack First for parts...they make up new replacement parts. https://jack-first-gun-parts.myshopify.com/collections/colt-e-i-frame-revolvers-python-official-police-trooper-officers-model-match/products/colt-e-i-hand

You already knew the answer from the start , out of time . It's a common Colt D and I frame thing .

OR , just make sure to cycle the gun smartly , so that inertia carrys the cylinder into place .

Biggfoot44 said:

You already knew the answer from the start , out of time . It's a common Colt D and I frame thing .

OR , just make sure to cycle the gun smartly , so that inertia carrys the cylinder into place .

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Yeah, I am thinking that's why DA seems to be fine.

TheOriginalMexicanBob said:

Yes...the hand needs to be stretched. You have to be very careful in doing so. If the hand has been stretched previously it will need replacing. Any Colt E- or I-frame hand should work but be careful of used hands...they've probably already been stretched. Try Jack First for parts...they make up new replacement parts. https://jack-first-gun-parts.myshopify.com/collections/colt-e-i-frame-revolvers-python-official-police-trooper-officers-model-match/products/colt-e-i-hand

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Thanks for the link and suggestions.

I had the same issue with my old first model Trooper and got a repro hand at Numrich. It need a little stoning down to fit, which is better than too short. $28.25
https://www.gunpartscorp.com/gun-manufacturer/colt/revolvers-colt

K-43 said:

I had the same issue with my old first model Trooper and got a repro hand at Numrich. It need a little stoning down to fit, which is better than too short. $28.25
https://www.gunpartscorp.com/gun-manufacturer/colt/revolvers-colt

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Out of curiosity, how much is a little stoning down? Like a few minutes of a high grit stone and it was timed right? Or like you had to reach for a #80?

I grabbed a NOS factory hand from a seller on eBay (heaven help me) as Numerich is still claiming it might be a few weeks before they'd get to my order (I have ordered from them a bunch in the past). I realize not the same as a repro.

lazarus said:

Out of curiosity, how much is a little stoning down? Like a few minutes of a high grit stone and it was timed right? Or like you had to reach for a #80?

I grabbed a NOS factory hand from a seller on eBay (heaven help me) as Numerich is still claiming it might be a few weeks before they'd get to my order (I have ordered from them a bunch in the past). I realize not the same as a repro.

Click to expand...

For my case it was a fine hard ceramic stone. It was just a little oversized. I think I did the first try, then stone and fit maybe 4 or 5 times and it was working. I figure it's better to take off a little with a finishing stone and need to remove a little more than remove a lot and need another new hand. So I assembled and disassembled more than I stoned.
I was afraid of a used one on eBay.

K-43 said:

For my case it was a fine hard ceramic stone. It was just a little oversized. I think I did the first try, then stone and fit maybe 4 or 5 times and it was working. I figure it's better to take off a little with a finishing stone and need to remove a little more than remove a lot and need another new hand. So I assembled and disassembled more than I stoned.
I was afraid of a used one on eBay.

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Yeah, me too. But it’s here now and I didn’t want to chance a longgg wait on Numerich. I sure don’t want to pay more than I need to, but willing to risk $25 or so that this one doesn’t work and can’t be made to work to have it all good soon.

Thanks for letting me know how you handled it. I’ve got 80-800 grit stones. I’ll start pretty fine.

So got the book. Of course haven’t read the whole dang thing yet. But I did read over some bits and did some more online digging. I think it is the hand timing. But I want to add more info after playing with it and reading over issues online.

I can’t tell in DA if the bolt is dropping in to the cylinder lock channel prior to hammer breaking. It appears no. It appears that it’s locking as the trigger comes back after the hammer breaks. From what I’ve read this is generally less of a concern on its own, but does indicate DA timing is off as it should lock just prior or as the seat breaks (it is pretty sure not immediately before as I can’t induce it to lock pulling the trigger prior to the hammer breaking no matter how carefully and slowly I pull the trigger)

In SA one of the 6 cylinders has significant hesitancy in rotating the cylinder (IE bolt not properly unlocking on that cylinder in the correct time). A nice firm/hard pull of the hammer and they all unlock fine, but still some extra hesitancy/force noticed on that cylinder.

Cocking the hammer in SA, the cylinder does NOT lock. The cylinder does not rotate far enough for the bolt to drop in to the locking channel. It’s darned close, but not there. Pulling the trigger the cylinder rotates that last degree and the bolt drops in to the cylinder channel. And with the trigger fully depressed the cylinder is very firmly locked (that bank vault lockup). So that last appears correct.

Of course the other symptom of shaving lead occasionally (I think it’s corresponding to the one chamber that has the significant hesitancy in unlocking in SA, this hesitancy is not noticed in DA).

So I have not read enough of Kuhnhausen’s book (I guess that is pretty obvious) to get through all the trouble shooting or hand timing sections (I did read over a bunch of the bolt stuff).

I am assuming this still sounds like a hand timing issue. Maybe with slight extra wear on the cylinder pawl for one chamber making the timing issue worse (leading to the cylinder not being locked up at all during firing for that one chamber maybe, hence spitting lead).

For the hand, the lower part begins cylinder rotation and the top is what finishes the rotation and holds the cylinder in place during firing, right? Or do I have that wrong?

If right, it sounds like both upper and lower hand need to be lengthened very slightly by peening the hand (follow procedure in book)? Replace and fit new hand if the old hand had previously been peeked.

Sound like I am probably on the right track? I know the book will likely steer me straight in the end, but it’s still down right intimidating reading it. To think I used to think revolvers were simpler than semi-autos! Ha!

Probably easier reading the WHOLE thing before attempting this. Which is likely what I will do (or at least all the sections pertaining to timing issues, troubleshooting, etc) I just want to see if it sounds like I am so far understanding what is (most likely) going on as well as how the hand, bolt and cylinder are interacting for timing and firing.

Does that one cylinder not unlocking soon enough indicate something else I might be missing? Do I need to address that cylinder ejector pawl and reshape it some how? Is that still an indicator in the hand being out of shape (does that mean the lower part of the hand is too long, but the top too short because of the other timing issue)?

Thanks!

I have a few JK pistol manuals I could look through.
Just by chance does the outside of the cylinder near the problem area look OK?

Nothing abby normal like crazing in the blue, dis-coloration- brite spot and all that?

Doco Overboard said:

I have a few JK pistol manuals I could look through.
Just by chance does the outside of the cylinder near the problem area look OK?

Nothing abby normal like crazing in the blue, dis-coloration- brite spot and all that?

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Nope. Looks fine. Wear in the bluing looks normal Along the bolt track. Typical drag marks I think. I’ll take a closer look and see if the slot or drag marks looks Abby normal for the chamber that doesn’t want to unlock easily. But nothing that immediately stand out.

Once you check it out, insert cylinder pin axis-center pin and think about which side of the frame it was shaving spitting lead, try to determine whats out of alignment. Not having a gauge, a small steel rule or other means of reliable measuring could be used.

Look at the frame where the forcing cone/cylinder juncture is and then the rear of the cylinder, breech face/recoil shield. Try to compare the gap on either side of the cylinder to the other fixed components.

Look at the cylinder from above the frame and then determine what other forces act on the axis that could cause mis-alignment then inspect the interfacing components.

Forget about about everything that actuates the cylinder and concentrate on what it spins on or around.

If all that checks out, the cylinder stop fitted into the frame with or without the spring will be the next thing to check out.

If the pistol is stripped,make sure the stop fits into all the cylinder notches without dragging and then look at how it fits in the frame, and the height of the rounded top of the stop with without any springs that keep it locked and how it protrudes through the frame window- then its interaction with the problem notch- cylinder hole.

Try to figure out if the stop is rounded over- an original part to the pistol drags in frame window etc.
The cylinder aligment is the primary concern becuase all the other movements are secondary to the bullet not becoming deformed when t enters the barrel.

One other thing look into the forcing cone/ barrel and see what it looks like in there. Leading, flame cutting wear etc. for any abby normal.

Here is a picture of the cylinder. The edges of the bolt channel seem clean (no peening that I can notice with a thumb nail or a case mouth). The brass case is the problem cylinder that had the most hesitancy. The nickel case also has a little, but a lot less. None of the others have noticeable hesitancy. Looking as careful as I can, I think the bolt isn’t moving until the hammer has moved back maybe 1/32”-1/16” of an inch. It takes just the tinniest bit of hammer movement in SA before the bolt also starts to retract. Barely noticeable, but it’s there. DA the bolt starts to move with even the slightest twitch of the hammer.

Picture of the problem cylinder(s) and then of the bolt channel opposite the problem cylinder.

Pretty sure no flame cutting and I don’t see any issues with the forcing cone.

Did play a bit more with it. If I cock the hammer hard and fast the bolt drops in to the slot in the cylinder. But if I cock it slow or medium it doesn’t quiet rotate enough.

More details. The bolt is dropping in the cylinder about at the 1/3rd mark on the cylinder bolt path where it tapers towards the bolt channel lock notch. Folding the hammer back will not lock the bolt except when doing it fast and hard cocking. BUT, if I move the hammer PAST the sear engaging the hammer, to its maximum travel backwards (as in last full cock, I hope I am making sense) the cylinder does generally rotate far enough and drops the bolt in to the cylinder bolt notch.

Not sure if the extra pictures adds anything. One is of the hammer at full cock and the bolt not locking up the cylinder. Other one is the hammer pulled past full cock and it rotated the cylinder the fraction of an inch and the bolt dropped in to the slot. It looks like it’s maybe half the width of the slot off in timing.

You can send the revolver to Frank Glenn in Phoenix, AZ. He's a master Colt gunsmith and get put that piece operating like new. He's very reasonable with his rates and has quick turnaround.