AR in .22-250

[DaemonAssassin]

I would think that a 6.5 Grendel would be about just as good, but for a lot less expense. Has he looked into or considered this round?

He has not, but I think he is dead set on the 22-250 some reason.

 

[FlatsFlite]

Ready out of the box: http://www.harrisbarrelworks.com/aruppers.html

 

[DaemonAssassin]

It would have to be on an AR10 platform. They have already been built in 6XC which was originally based on the .22-250 case, so it is do able. Given the cost of having one built in .22-250, I would opt for an already proven and reliable cartridge set up that is already in production and shoots bullets with higher B.C. and better performance.

Given that the ballistic coefficient is for the bullet, the BC of a caliber doesn't exist. For example only, the BC of a .30 cal 168 SMK is higher than the BC of a .30 cal 165 SGK. BC's are never caliber based, because they can't be. The caliber does not move through the air, only the bullet does.

Given that the BC of a lot of the .224 cal bullets that the .223 and .22-250 use, the BC for both calibers is the same.

Ballistic coefficient info from Sierra for .224 bullets
http://www.sierrabullets.com/resources/ballistic-coefficients/

Sierra load data for .223 ammo.
http://accurateshooter.net/Downloads/sierra223ar.pdf

Sierra load data for .22-250 ammo.
http://accurateshooter.net/Blog/sierra22-250loads.pdf

Both calibers share the same bullets in the respective load data.

 

[4g64loser]

DaemonA-

This idea has been kicked around a good bit by a couple shooters I run with (mainly for DMR). The upshot is easy component availability and a great trajectory.

Downshots are as follows-The COAL is shorter than the 308 derived cartridges and this will result in cases shifting around in the magazine, particularly during the rough handling that is generally the norm during DMR. Another problem is that case taper in the 22-250 case will necessitate customized magazines. I have personally run into this issue customizing AICS mags to run with .22-250 in a boltgun for a customer. not an easy task and each one must be tuned to the rifle individually. Due, once again, to case taper, the ten round magazines just won't work. You can only get five to feed before taper becomes too much of an issue. IF you went with the .22-250 AI, this might be partially alleviated (I have yet to try this personally, but I can say that the 6XC which has similar case taper to some of the Ackley chamberings works like a charm from an AICS mag). Also due to case taper and the full length sizing required for functionality in a semi auto platform, the brass life in this application would not be very good. If you shoot only factory ammo, this issue is of course moot.

 

[DaemonAssassin]

DaemonA-

This idea has been kicked around a good bit by a couple shooters I run with (mainly for DMR). The upshot is easy component availability and a great trajectory.

Downshots are as follows-The COAL is shorter than the 308 derived cartridges and this will result in cases shifting around in the magazine, particularly during the rough handling that is generally the norm during DMR. Another problem is that case taper in the 22-250 case will necessitate customized magazines. I have personally run into this issue customizing AICS mags to run with .22-250 in a boltgun for a customer. not an easy task and each one must be tuned to the rifle individually. Due, once again, to case taper, the ten round magazines just won't work. You can only get five to feed before taper becomes too much of an issue. IF you went with the .22-250 AI, this might be partially alleviated (I have yet to try this personally, but I can say that the 6XC which has similar case taper to some of the Ackley chamberings works like a charm from an AICS mag). Also due to case taper and the full length sizing required for functionality in a semi auto platform, the brass life in this application would not be very good. If you shoot only factory ammo, this issue is of course moot.

Excellent.

My dad has no intention of doing any kind of rough handling. He plans on just sitting there and doing varmint hunting at distance. So one would think he would be gentle with it and it would be getting banged around a lot.

As for the mags, would it be possible to use a standard AR15 mag, due to the COAL, with a removable adapter block in the mag well of an AR10 lower? Kind of like what Colt did with the 901 mag well. The reason for this is that once he finds out the joys of shooting an AR10, I think he may want to get a 308 upper for deer hunting and just use the one lower for both applications.

I have a feeling that he isn't all that concerned about brass longevity, due to the number of times he plans on reloading each piece of brass. He also was told no in very polite terms about wanting to "borrow" my precision AR for varmint hunting.

Would you have to do any mods to the mags for the 6xc to function properly out of an AR?

He was looking into this as a random thought because of the caliber being interesting and the practical applications for varmint hunting out in WV. On top of the reasons I have listed in previous posts, I think he is also highly intrigued by the velocities that the .22-250 can get up to and he want to have something to play with. Hey, he is retired and he needs something to occupy his time.

Everybody else: I am taking all of the info from this thread and letting him know what the possibilities of this build would be.

 

[4g64loser]

Rough handling is an issue, but the simple action of recoil will cause the rounds to shift in the mag. Even in an internal magazine boltgun with the wrong magazine follower/box in place this can happen (think 22-250 in a mag designed for 308 as a good example). Some of us do use the "wrong" box/follower in special applications like running long-for-caliber projectiles in cases where we seat far beyond SAAMI COAL. an 80 or 90gr VLD bullet seated to 2.500 or longer in a .22-250 would be an example of this. Not recommended for anyone who is not willing to invest a lot of time and,potentially, parts into tuning for their specific case.

As for AR15 mags, the COAL for 223 in an ar mag is about 2.250 give or take a bit. I've got mags that will allow for 2.260 with reliable feed but YMMV. The case head is .378 for .223. The COAL for .22-250 is 2.350 depending on load. the case head is .473. In my limited experience, the best option for .22-250 in a magazine of any detachable type is the Tikka T3. It uses a three or five round single column mag, offers the option to seat out to .308 COAL (T3 mags come in .223, .308, and .30-06 lengths and all mags are the same outside dimensions, using a rear located spacer to set the actual internal length), and feeds flawlessly. I know this is not what you are looking for, just food for thought. Making the very significant case taper of a .22-250 case work in an AR platform magazine (designed for cases of much less body taper) is not a recipe for success. The double column, double feed nature of the magazine exacerbates this issue as the rounds will want to stick up and out of the magazine at the front where the case is much narrower. I just tried stuffing some .22-250 junk ammo I have laying round into an SR25 (think AR10 type) magazine and this issue is immediately apparent. Case taper is the ultimate bullet to the head for this idea, just like all the attempts to get 7.62x39 to work in an AR15 magazine. I got six in the magazine, the top round stuck out at a ridiculous angle and, when the magazine was struck, the rounds volcanoed out the top.

I would gladly test the 6XC theory but I don't personally own one and thus do not have any ammunition laying about. the 6x47 lapua and 6.5x47 lapua, however, I can vouch for the feeding reliability of. While I own neither myself, I've shot gasguns in both chamberings and they function well with minor, if any, tuning of mags. The 6XC is sorta/kinda similar to the 6x47. If I were to pick, I'd go with the lapua case as the brass is better and much more available than XC brass. The 6creedmoor is another option in the same power range (I collectively refer to them as Mighty Mouse Sixes).

As I mentioned previously, the case taper of the Ackley 22-250 is significantly less. This MIGHT help the problem but your overall length would still be an issue. If he has a lot of time on his hands, the 22-08 wildcats would be even hotter than the .22-250AI. If case forming (easiest way is from 243 cases, and lapua brass is available for best results) doesn't turn him off and he has to have a 224 bore thats the way I'd go for ease of mating to the AR platform.

If you want the easy way, get a 243 upper and shoot the ultralight pills. I know a guy that uses 55s in a 243 and he's getting similar trajectories to my best .22-250s or better. I'll be happy to help you or your dad if I can.

 

[outrider58]

Rough handling is an issue, but the simple action of recoil will cause the rounds to shift in the mag. Even in an internal magazine boltgun with the wrong magazine follower/box in place this can happen (think 22-250 in a mag designed for 308 as a good example). Some of us do use the "wrong" box/follower in special applications like running long-for-caliber projectiles in cases where we seat far beyond SAAMI COAL. an 80 or 90gr VLD bullet seated to 2.500 or longer in a .22-250 would be an example of this. Not recommended for anyone who is not willing to invest a lot of time and,potentially, parts into tuning for their specific case.

As for AR15 mags, the COAL for 223 in an ar mag is about 2.250 give or take a bit. I've got mags that will allow for 2.260 with reliable feed but YMMV. The case head is .378 for .223. The COAL for .22-250 is 2.350 depending on load. the case head is .473. In my limited experience, the best option for .22-250 in a magazine of any detachable type is the Tikka T3. It uses a three or five round single column mag, offers the option to seat out to .308 COAL (T3 mags come in .223, .308, and .30-06 lengths and all mags are the same outside dimensions, using a rear located spacer to set the actual internal length), and feeds flawlessly. I know this is not what you are looking for, just food for thought. Making the very significant case taper of a .22-250 case work in an AR platform magazine (designed for cases of much less body taper) is not a recipe for success. The double column, double feed nature of the magazine exacerbates this issue as the rounds will want to stick up and out of the magazine at the front where the case is much narrower. I just tried stuffing some .22-250 junk ammo I have laying round into an SR25 (think AR10 type) magazine and this issue is immediately apparent. Case taper is the ultimate bullet to the head for this idea, just like all the attempts to get 7.62x39 to work in an AR15 magazine. I got six in the magazine, the top round stuck out at a ridiculous angle and, when the magazine was struck, the rounds volcanoed out the top.

I would gladly test the 6XC theory but I don't personally own one and thus do not have any ammunition laying about. the 6x47 lapua and 6.5x47 lapua, however, I can vouch for the feeding reliability of. While I own neither myself, I've shot gasguns in both chamberings and they function well with minor, if any, tuning of mags. The 6XC is sorta/kinda similar to the 6x47. If I were to pick, I'd go with the lapua case as the brass is better and much more available than XC brass. The 6creedmoor is another option in the same power range (I collectively refer to them as Mighty Mouse Sixes).

As I mentioned previously, the case taper of the Ackley 22-250 is significantly less. This MIGHT help the problem but your overall length would still be an issue. If he has a lot of time on his hands, the 22-08 wildcats would be even hotter than the .22-250AI. If case forming (easiest way is from 243 cases, and lapua brass is available for best results) doesn't turn him off and he has to have a 224 bore thats the way I'd go for ease of mating to the AR platform.

If you want the easy way, get a 243 upper and shoot the ultralight pills. I know a guy that uses 55s in a 243 and he's getting similar trajectories to my best .22-250s or better. I'll be happy to help you or your dad if I can.

Sounds like a purdy good compromise, DA

 

[DaemonAssassin]

Rough handling is an issue, but the simple action of recoil will cause the rounds to shift in the mag. Even in an internal magazine boltgun with the wrong magazine follower/box in place this can happen (think 22-250 in a mag designed for 308 as a good example). Some of us do use the "wrong" box/follower in special applications like running long-for-caliber projectiles in cases where we seat far beyond SAAMI COAL. an 80 or 90gr VLD bullet seated to 2.500 or longer in a .22-250 would be an example of this. Not recommended for anyone who is not willing to invest a lot of time and,potentially, parts into tuning for their specific case.

As for AR15 mags, the COAL for 223 in an ar mag is about 2.250 give or take a bit. I've got mags that will allow for 2.260 with reliable feed but YMMV. The case head is .378 for .223. The COAL for .22-250 is 2.350 depending on load. the case head is .473. In my limited experience, the best option for .22-250 in a magazine of any detachable type is the Tikka T3. It uses a three or five round single column mag, offers the option to seat out to .308 COAL (T3 mags come in .223, .308, and .30-06 lengths and all mags are the same outside dimensions, using a rear located spacer to set the actual internal length), and feeds flawlessly. I know this is not what you are looking for, just food for thought. Making the very significant case taper of a .22-250 case work in an AR platform magazine (designed for cases of much less body taper) is not a recipe for success. The double column, double feed nature of the magazine exacerbates this issue as the rounds will want to stick up and out of the magazine at the front where the case is much narrower. I just tried stuffing some .22-250 junk ammo I have laying round into an SR25 (think AR10 type) magazine and this issue is immediately apparent. Case taper is the ultimate bullet to the head for this idea, just like all the attempts to get 7.62x39 to work in an AR15 magazine. I got six in the magazine, the top round stuck out at a ridiculous angle and, when the magazine was struck, the rounds volcanoed out the top.

I would gladly test the 6XC theory but I don't personally own one and thus do not have any ammunition laying about. the 6x47 lapua and 6.5x47 lapua, however, I can vouch for the feeding reliability of. While I own neither myself, I've shot gasguns in both chamberings and they function well with minor, if any, tuning of mags. The 6XC is sorta/kinda similar to the 6x47. If I were to pick, I'd go with the lapua case as the brass is better and much more available than XC brass. The 6creedmoor is another option in the same power range (I collectively refer to them as Mighty Mouse Sixes).

As I mentioned previously, the case taper of the Ackley 22-250 is significantly less. This MIGHT help the problem but your overall length would still be an issue. If he has a lot of time on his hands, the 22-08 wildcats would be even hotter than the .22-250AI. If case forming (easiest way is from 243 cases, and lapua brass is available for best results) doesn't turn him off and he has to have a 224 bore thats the way I'd go for ease of mating to the AR platform.

If you want the easy way, get a 243 upper and shoot the ultralight pills. I know a guy that uses 55s in a 243 and he's getting similar trajectories to my best .22-250s or better. I'll be happy to help you or your dad if I can.

Whoa. I am definitely going to pass your offer and info from this post along to him. Keep in mind that he is just pondering the possibility right now, but if I can convince him of an alternative, I am going to do my level best.

[/B]

Sounds like a purdy good compromise, DA

No kidding!

 

[Pinecone]

Just need a new cartridge.

I copywrite .22-.308.

.308 Winchester case, necked down to .224 bullet.

Remember, I get royalties for every round made.

 

[Magnumite]

Wow, school is in session!!!! Great thread

 

[Biggfoot44]

You're 35yrs late. Jim Carmichel developed the .22CHeetah in late '70s .

 

[shooter682]

http://www.olyarms.com/shop/rifles/umar-rifles/umar-22250.html

Ready right now

 

[DaemonAssassin]

http://www.olyarms.com/shop/rifles/umar-rifles/umar-22250.html

Ready right now

The price of the rifle isn't bad, but the price per mag is frackin' outrageous.

 

[4g64loser]

bigfoot beat me to it. haha. J.C. did the CHeetah with, I belive, Mr. Huntington (hence the CH in cheetah). They, however, did not use a .308 case. They used the special .308 match case with thinner case walls and, as I recall (correct me if i'm wrong please), the small primer pocket. Remington did em and a bunch of people capitalized on em as parent cases for wildcat forming.

DaemonA, the reason for the price per mag is, as i stated earlier, the amount of time and material they have in making one that works. I'm here to tell you that after doing one .22-250 AICS mag for a guy I don't plan on doing any more of them, even for myself. I'll stick to SSSF (single stack single feed) mag designs (with 3-5rnd capacities) for tapered cases. I have never been an oly arms fan but I can only imagine how many mags they trashed and how much hair they pulled out making it work.

 

[Pinecone]

It doesn't matter. I have copywrited the NAME.

Like .300 AAC.

 

[outrider58]

The .22 Pinecone.....I like it!

 

[dist1646]

Given that the ballistic coefficient is for the bullet, the BC of a caliber doesn't exist. For example only, the BC of a .30 cal 168 SMK is higher than the BC of a .30 cal 165 SGK. BC's are never caliber based, because they can't be. The caliber does not move through the air, only the bullet does.

Given that the BC of a lot of the .224 cal bullets that the .223 and .22-250 use, the BC for both calibers is the same.

Ballistic coefficient info from Sierra for .224 bullets
http://www.sierrabullets.com/resources/ballistic-coefficients/

Sierra load data for .223 ammo.
http://accurateshooter.net/Downloads/sierra223ar.pdf

Sierra load data for .22-250 ammo.
http://accurateshooter.net/Blog/sierra22-250loads.pdf

Both calibers share the same bullets in the respective load data.

"and shoots bullets with higher B.C. ..." I think I said that.

 

[raider80]

http://www.shop.blackholeweaponry.com/22-250_c528.htm.
It seems barrels our out there.

 

[DaemonAssassin]

"and shoots bullets with higher B.C. ..." I think I said that.

You're right. My apologies.

 

[Biggfoot44]

Yes , the spl sm primer thin wall cases , BR Basic or somthing like that. Jim C. Wrote that .308 based cases could be used, but would be .05-.10 moa larger groups. A big deal in benchrest competition, but probably unnoticible to field shooters or hunters.