ATF Coming After Firearms with Stabilizing Braces

[Boats]

Do you have any NFA items? If not, you're about to get some knowledge dropped on you.

Now, lets move on to where I can pretty well say that you don't own any NFA items.

Hasn't anyone told you what ASSume means?
What else do you "know" that is wrong? (even included MDS required foot)

I will hold my breath for your apology.

Under federal law you must submit a Form 5320.20 in order to temporarily move a SBR, SBS, DD, AOW across state lines.

This thread is about pistols that will become stamped SBRs. Not supressors. Not AOWs. Do try to keep up.

You and I file the paperwork, I am thinking of the 4 million or so potential new SBR owners who may not know this and may have their rights stripped due to lack of knowledge. Because I don't think about just me.

 

[outrider58]

Me too. Seems like nobody has any factual answers yet, but there are lots of opinions, and some are very well informed. If I didn't have a lot of time and fundage invested, I'd be tempted to toss the affected items into the middle of the bay and be done with worrying about it. Otherwise, it's a wait and see process to see if this horrible rule will be enacted.

I imagine an enterprising FFL could make a fortune at some point in the future building compliance into affected braced pistols, or at least selling the accessories to do it. And that might work well until the ATF decides to reverse their previously reversed ruling and make braces legal again, after the likely SC challenge. ARGH.

Factual answers to what exactly?

You have three choices. SBR, keep as a pistol, or build it into a rifle. Screw the "maybe they'll give is free stamps" BS. Don't hold your breath.

 

[spoon059]

How will they know who they are?

First and foremost, my daughters team was on fire today and we won handily! My daughter had 2 great hits and scored twice!

Since everyone else is playing hypothetical in this thread, I will too.

Lets assume that the ATF mandates that AR pistols are now SBRs and grandfathers existing AR pistols. I'm going to ignore the fact that they don't have the authority, because illegal law or not, they can still arrest you, take your guns, throw you in jail, make you pay for an attorney and eventually after many many years of litigation you *might* get satisfaction. But in the meantime, you are screwed.

So, the ATF knows that there are X number of pistol braces out there, lets say 10 million to make it easy.
They grandfather them, but require you to get your "free" stamp. 7 million people apply for stamps.
The ATF asks a local law enforcement agency to do the math and determines that there are still 3 million braces that have not yet been accounted for.
The ATF sends subpoenas out to the major manufacturers of these braces and demands business records for all sales. The ATF sends subpoenas out to the major distributors and demands business records for those sales.
Now the ATF sends that to an analyst who determines that outrider58 and Boats bought braces, but never applied for a tax stamp to turn them into SBRs.
Now the ATF sends subpoenas to major manufacturers of AR lowers and demands business records. They send that info to an analyst and determine that outrider58 bought a lower, a lower parts kit and they previously knew he had a brace.
Now they have determined that outrider58 has the items in his possession to make an illegal SBR.

Its really not that far fetched for the federal gov't to do that. Its literally as easy as sending a couple of subpoenas, which require a very low standard of proof to obtain information. Couple subpoenas from a couple manufacturers will supply a LOT of information. Pretty easy for an analyst to print out a list of the people who are listed as customers of SBA, PSA, Aero, Geisele, Spikes, etc and compare that back to the list of people who are approved for an SBR.

Will they do that? Darned if I know. I wouldn't put anything past fanatical liberal Maryland to try to confiscate guns and villianize patriots.

Those that say there isn't a gun registry... come on, really? Maryland ABSOLUTELY keeps a record of every regulated firearm transaction. If you think Maryland won't share that with the federal gov't, you are crazy. Anyone that bought from an FFL, your regulated firearm is in an easily searchable database. If I am investigating you for a gun crime, my first step is the Maryland Gun Center. I get an indepth, routine response within an hour, 24 hours a day.

For some people that owned PMFs, or bought face-to-face before that was illegal, it gets a little trickier to track you down. My point in all of this, for which I originally replied to Boats, is that every gun that I have ever bought, I bought through an FFL. Maryland knows exactly what I have, therefore I have every reason to believe that the feds know exactly what I have. My whole point was that, for someone like me, I don't see the point in trying to hide from the gov't because they already know exactly what I have. They know what guns I own, they can easily determine what uppers I've bought (one from PSA, one from Geisele, and a whole bunch of parts to make an upper from Brownells).

Perhaps if I had a PMF and machined my own upper then I might be able to make the argument that I'm not telling the gov't what I own. But I didn't, so its no secret. They know I have several lower receivers that were bought as AOW for the purpose of making them pistols. They can easily subpoena and determine that I have several SBA3 pistol braces, as well as several lower parts kits. They know my name. They know my address. They can easily obtain my IP address and phone number that I used when I ordered the parts online. From that IP address they can easily find my home, where I ordered them and had them shipped to. From my phone number then can easily find my phone, and likely me. Verizon wireless is pretty accurate with pings, so they could easily narrow my location down to within a couple dozen meters.

If the ATF illegally makes AR pistols SBRs, then I'll have to do my research and determine how I plan to respond. I have no intention of giving up my guns. Worst case scenario, I might simply disassemble the pistols for the time being and wait it out. I've got plenty of other guns that are considered legal in Maryland that are more accurate to further distances than my AR pistols are anyways.

 

[[Kev308]]

Just because they can show up like that, doesn't mean you have to talk to them. Use your rights and they will get the hint. But again this is more fearmongering. How many of these kinds of this are reported for NFA items? I'll wait.....

...It's just common sense tax stamp amnesty.

 

[spoon059]

First off, I never said YOU are a horrible person. The concept and mindset of "*** I *** am not affected so *** I *** dont care" is in my opinion a big part of the problem. It IS a slippery slope argument, however history has proven that gun control is a death by a thousand cuts type battle. Keep gun owners divided and apathetic, dangle a carrot once in a while, and the infringements will continue.

I wasn't trying to be antagonistic with you. I'm struggling to understand a lot of what you are saying. I hope I've established that the fact that the gov't already knows what I have. I cannot hide any of it from the gov't. I don't see what I am "giving up" by accepting a tax stamp. That is what I have been asking.

They already know what I have. Getting a tax stamp doesn't give them any secret info that they didn't already have. As it stands right now, I don't really see a convincing argument against accepting the stamp. I don't think its legal, but I lack the resources to fight it, and I stand a better chance of winning in the end if I become "legal" now and maintaining what I have, rather than being stubborn and fighting the federal gov't from behind bars.

I realize that isn't a popular opinion, but I can play the game while still fighting against the rules.

 

[outrider58]

First and foremost, my daughters team was on fire today and we won handily! My daughter had 2 great hits and scored twice!

Since everyone else is playing hypothetical in this thread, I will too.

Lets assume that the ATF mandates that AR pistols are now SBRs and grandfathers existing AR pistols. I'm going to ignore the fact that they don't have the authority, because illegal law or not, they can still arrest you, take your guns, throw you in jail, make you pay for an attorney and eventually after many many years of litigation you *might* get satisfaction. But in the meantime, you are screwed.

So, the ATF knows that there are X number of pistol braces out there, lets say 10 million to make it easy.
They grandfather them, but require you to get your "free" stamp. 7 million people apply for stamps.
The ATF asks a local law enforcement agency to do the math and determines that there are still 3 million braces that have not yet been accounted for.
The ATF sends subpoenas out to the major manufacturers of these braces and demands business records for all sales. The ATF sends subpoenas out to the major distributors and demands business records for those sales.
Now the ATF sends that to an analyst who determines that outrider58 and Boats bought braces, but never applied for a tax stamp to turn them into SBRs.
Now the ATF sends subpoenas to major manufacturers of AR lowers and demands business records. They send that info to an analyst and determine that outrider58 bought a lower, a lower parts kit and they previously knew he had a brace.
Now they have determined that outrider58 has the items in his possession to make an illegal SBR.

Its really not that far fetched for the federal gov't to do that. Its literally as easy as sending a couple of subpoenas, which require a very low standard of proof to obtain information. Couple subpoenas from a couple manufacturers will supply a LOT of information. Pretty easy for an analyst to print out a list of the people who are listed as customers of SBA, PSA, Aero, Geisele, Spikes, etc and compare that back to the list of people who are approved for an SBR.

Will they do that? Darned if I know. I wouldn't put anything past fanatical liberal Maryland to try to confiscate guns and villianize patriots.

Those that say there isn't a gun registry... come on, really? Maryland ABSOLUTELY keeps a record of every regulated firearm transaction. If you think Maryland won't share that with the federal gov't, you are crazy. Anyone that bought from an FFL, your regulated firearm is in an easily searchable database. If I am investigating you for a gun crime, my first step is the Maryland Gun Center. I get an indepth, routine response within an hour, 24 hours a day.

For some people that owned PMFs, or bought face-to-face before that was illegal, it gets a little trickier to track you down. My point in all of this, for which I originally replied to Boats, is that every gun that I have ever bought, I bought through an FFL. Maryland knows exactly what I have, therefore I have every reason to believe that the feds know exactly what I have. My whole point was that, for someone like me, I don't see the point in trying to hide from the gov't because they already know exactly what I have. They know what guns I own, they can easily determine what uppers I've bought (one from PSA, one from Geisele, and a whole bunch of parts to make an upper from Brownells).

Perhaps if I had a PMF and machined my own upper then I might be able to make the argument that I'm not telling the gov't what I own. But I didn't, so its no secret. They know I have several lower receivers that were bought as AOW for the purpose of making them pistols. They can easily subpoena and determine that I have several SBA3 pistol braces, as well as several lower parts kits. They know my name. They know my address. They can easily obtain my IP address and phone number that I used when I ordered the parts online. From that IP address they can easily find my home, where I ordered them and had them shipped to. From my phone number then can easily find my phone, and likely me. Verizon wireless is pretty accurate with pings, so they could easily narrow my location down to within a couple dozen meters.

If the ATF illegally makes AR pistols SBRs, then I'll have to do my research and determine how I plan to respond. I have no intention of giving up my guns. Worst case scenario, I might simply disassemble the pistols for the time being and wait it out. I've got plenty of other guns that are considered legal in Maryland that are more accurate to further distances than my AR pistols are anyways.

There are millions of guns in the US that, for many reasons(most legal), are untraceable.

The AFT isn't banning pistols. Full stop. They are trying to ban a gun part. By simply removing that part from your pistol, your pistol is now legal. When they come knocking on your door, you tell them you threw the braces away. End of story.

Or, while you have them there, you can ask them if they would like to see your bumpstock collection. Remember those?

I'm not trying to be a smart ass, just give some gravity of such a task. Now, if Brandon next hires 80K AFT agents, I'd say maybe it's time to make some moves.

On the Pistol brace amnesty, I don't see how in the hell they can pull something like that off. Not without mandating that only pistols over 29" OAL will qualify. So what will they do with the rest? Remember, the aren't banning pistols. Only SBs.

 

[Boats]

I wasn't trying to be antagonistic with you. I'm struggling to understand a lot of what you are saying. I hope I've established that the fact that the gov't already knows what I have. I cannot hide any of it from the gov't. I don't see what I am "giving up" by accepting a tax stamp. That is what I have been asking.

They already know what I have. Getting a tax stamp doesn't give them any secret info that they didn't already have. As it stands right now, I don't really see a convincing argument against accepting the stamp. I don't think its legal, but I lack the resources to fight it, and I stand a better chance of winning in the end if I become "legal" now and maintaining what I have, rather than being stubborn and fighting the federal gov't from behind bars.

I realize that isn't a popular opinion, but I can play the game while still fighting against the rules.

Appreciate that. You know you better than anyone. If you have assessed the big picture and determined that tax stamps are the way to go, then great!

Aren't you a LEO? because if so, I doubt you have much to worry about, no matter what you do.

 

[spoon059]

The AFT isn't banning pistols. Full stop. They are trying to ban a gun part. By simply removing that part from your pistol, your pistol is now legal. When they come knocking on your door, you tell them you threw the braces away. End of story.

Full disclosure, I have no clue what they are trying to do. That said, if you are right, and you trust the federal government to be reasonable, I guess you have nothing to worry about!

 

[spoon059]

Appreciate that. You know you better than anyone. If you have assessed the big picture and determined that tax stamps are the way to go, then great!

Aren't you a LEO? because if so, I doubt you have much to worry about, no matter what you do.

#1 I haven't come to that conclusion, because they haven't come out with any ruling.
#2 I am a white male cop in one of the most progressive counties in one of the most liberal states in our union. I don't feel like I have a target on my back... I feel like I have a homing beacon on my back.

 

[Waingro]

There are millions of guns in the US that, for many reasons(most legal), are untraceable.

The AFT isn't banning pistols. Full stop. They are trying to ban a gun part. By simply removing that part from your pistol, your pistol is now legal. When they come knocking on your door, you tell them you threw the braces away. End of story.

Or, while you have them there, you can ask them if they would like to see your bumpstock collection. Remember those?

I'm not trying to be a smart ass, just give some gravity of such a task. Now, if Brandon next hires 80K AFT agents, I'd say maybe it's time to make some moves.

On the Pistol brace amnesty, I don't see how in the hell they can pull something like that off. Not without mandating that only pistols over 29" OAL will qualify. So what will they do with the rest? Remember, the aren't banning pistols. Only SBs.

I'm with you on this. It's complete ********. I'm all for form 1's in the past if thats what i gotta do. I've got a few of them. But certain guns like my mp5 clones won't meet 29" in md without some hideous modifications. Hence the brace or they would have made 200 bucks off me already

 

[Boats]

#1 I haven't come to that conclusion, because they haven't come out with any ruling.
#2 I am a white male cop in one of the most progressive counties in one of the most liberal states in our union. I don't feel like I have a target on my back... I feel like I have a homing beacon on my back.

Fair point, I know what that feels like (except the cop part)

 

[Slackdaddy]

Again, not a horrible person. When you purchase a firearm, your 4473 is kept by the FFL for 20 years. If the FFL goes out of business then those records are sent to the AFT and scanned into a non-searchable database. Maryland is supposedly prohibited from keeping a firearm registry per federal law.

Choosing to register with a tax stamp means that your firearm is absolutely part of both a federal and state registry that IS searchable and should the AFT decide to pass another law (oops, I mean change their mind) about what is illegal, you have given them an easy way for them to enforce it.

Hope this helps your understanding.

And one click of a mouse and that database is searchable.

 

[outrider58]

Full disclosure, I have no clue what they are trying to do. That said, if you are right, and you trust the federal government to be reasonable, I guess you have nothing to worry about!

Lol! I, in no way, expect the federal gov. to be reasonable. But they are still very limited in the actions they are physically able to carry out on a grand scale. The gov. is a big, lumbering leviathan. It takes a long time before the rear wheels catch up to the speed of the front wheels. You'll know when it's coming.

 

[HaveBlue]

Just out of curiosity, do you think that the government doesn't already know about the majority of the guns you have? Unless you are making your own, they know already. I'm not sure exactly what information they gain by giving me a couple tax stamps. Every gun I've ever bought was bought legally, which means an FFL filed paper on it. Sure it's a cumbersome process for them to determine which guns I own, but they already have the information.

The other part you mentioned, about people lying and getting a bunch of stamps... don't you need to include the serial number of the lower? Seems counterproductive to get "free" stamps that you can't use because you don't have a corresponding lower to associate it with.

Also, I'm not too familiar with NFA items, but doesn't the Constitution still come into play? I don't think the police can come to your door and force you to present your firearms for inspection. That means they would need PC to believe you are committing a crime. Don't commit a crime and you don't have to worry about a search warrant.

Am I missing something here...?

Sent from my SM-N970U1 using Tapatalk

You make some good points. Like the lower serial numbers.

However, the Feds are prohibited by law from maintaining a database of firearms and their owners. An agency than works so hard to get around the black and white letter and the specific intent of the law is not going to be dissuaded by a gray area like PC. Especially when they need some sympathetic press.

 

[HaveBlue]

Uppers can be stamped.

A good example of this is the B&T GHM9. It has three serial numbers (Bolt, Barrel and Upper). The lower has no serial number. The lowers are meant to be swappable to accommodate Glock, P320 or B&T stick magazines.

 

[HaveBlue]

Don't pay any attention to the ones that are going full blown conspiracy or NFA STRIPS YOUR RIGHTS crowd.

Listen to the ones that know about NFA from walking the path, there are a lot of them on MDS, but a few are posting in this thread.

Im not concerned about the NFA stripping my rights. I’m much more concerned about the ATF stripping my rights though.

If the ATF was worthy of trust and would only use its powers for the good of all mankind, why would congress agree to prevent them from having a national gun registry? If you think about it, that is a fairly unique restriction among federal agencies.

I do think you‘re doing an excellent job of dispelling myths about NFA ownership. Especially with regards to the actual legal boundaries placed on the ATF and ownership.

The people that own these items are prone to stay comfortably within the law because when they make paperwork mistakes, the consequences can be extreme. The myths survive because the ATF keeps pushing these boundaries with no repercussions.

 

[HaveBlue]

Lol! I, in no way, expect the federal gov. to be reasonable. But they are still very limited in the actions they are physically able to carry out on a grand scale. The gov. is a big, lumbering leviathan. It takes a long time before the rear wheels catch up to the speed of the front wheels. You'll know when it's coming.

Agreed, I think the ATF could fulfill their wildest dreams but only on a relatively small number of gun owners. I don’t think they can scale to even 10,000 future pistol brace offenders.

Outside the LEOs on this thread nearly all police officers have zero knowledge base (or interest) in whether the 29” measurements are taken with the brace extended or not.

Even other LE Feds have no care about knowing this stuff. I’ve flown commercial (all over the US) with comical quantities of braced pistols, SBRs , cans and ammo over many years. No one, zero, nada from Homeland or TSA has ever asked to see a tax stamp or any ATF paperwork.

My point is, the only reason we care about crossing Ts and dotting Is , is that someday we might run into someone who does care. Or someone doesn’t like something else about what we say or think and this becomes the most convenient charge to make.

If that sounds far fetched, just remember how the FBI bragged about convicting Al Capone of tax evasion. They made movies about how they couldn‘T convict him of murder and racketeering but they could send him to prison for a paperwork crime.

The Free Stamp crowd probably doesn’t care about $200. They believe that being super compliant will protect them. The Free Stamps are a Trap crowd seem to believe that giving the ATF any unnecessary information or control is giving them an advantage.

 

[Worsley]

Considering that the ATF beieves that there are between 10 million and 40 million braces in circulation and almost zero incidents involving them, doesn’t that make the whole SBR rule a moot and pointless rule / argument.

 

[outrider58]

Agreed, I think the ATF could fulfill their wildest dreams but only on a relatively small number of gun owners. I don’t think they can scale to even 10,000 future pistol brace offenders.

Outside the LEOs on this thread nearly all police officers have zero knowledge base (or interest) in whether the 29” measurements are taken with the brace extended or not.

Even other LE Feds have no care about knowing this stuff. I’ve flown commercial (all over the US) with comical quantities of braced pistols, SBRs , cans and ammo over many years. No one, zero, nada from Homeland or TSA has ever asked to see a tax stamp or any ATF paperwork.

My point is, the only reason we care about crossing Ts and dotting Is , is that someday we might run into someone who does care. Or someone doesn’t like something else about what we say or think and this becomes the most convenient charge to make.

If that sounds far fetched, just remember how the FBI bragged about convicting Al Capone of tax evasion. They made movies about how they couldn‘T convict him of murder and racketeering but they could send him to prison for a paperwork crime.

The Free Stamp crowd probably doesn’t care about $200. They believe that being super compliant will protect them. The Free Stamps are a Trap crowd seem to believe that giving the ATF any unnecessary information or control is giving them an advantage.

I couldn't agree more.

 

[Sarguy7777]

Fingers crossed for positive results from Dominic Bianchi et al. v. Brian E. Frosh et al. when the 4th Circuit stops dragging their feet and follows the direction of the Supreme Court to revisit the Assault Weapons Ban of 2013 and it's constitutionality.

My understanding is that the 29" requirement for rifles in MD came directly from the FSA of 2013 as the language therein defines rifles under 29" as copycat weapons based on their length. If FSA 2013 is deemed unconstitutional like it certainly should be based on the Bruen decision in NY, we'll be able to SBR guns less than 29" again in MD.