Geothermal energy.

[Minuteman]

With these energy prices, and potential for power issues, I've all but decided to go with geothermal for heating/cooling, hot water and I think there is even geothermal electric generation?

My current HVAC is nearly 20 years old, getting hard to find parts and isn't very efficient.

I live in central MD; any advice appreciated!

http://www.darvill.clara.net/altenerg/geothermal.htm

 

[hvymax]

You will want to do a carefull cost benefit analysis. I cut my heating and cooling bill nearly 80% by installing a new 19 seer unit with a dehumidification cycle and a biasing damper between the living areas and bedrooms. It would probably have taken many years longer than the system would last to save enough to cover the additional cost. Depending on your particular circumstances it may be your best bet.

 

[Ab_Normal]

If you already have a well for water, I wonder if you can use the water in it for your ground loop heat exchanger? I think the water stays a constant temperature.

 

[DZ]

If you are going to stay in your house forever, go for it. If not, get one of the ~20 SEER units out there now and call it a day. I would expect to pay somewhere in the neighborhood of $25k for geothermal, versus about $8k for a new high efficiency unit.

How is you current duct distribution? Residential homes are infamous for leaky, poorly designed ductwork. If your distribution sucks now, it'll still suck with a new system.

Last year I installed a 16 SEER heat pump to replace my old York A/C unit that had to have been at least 20 years old. I kept the original oil burning furnace as is.

Last winter my neighbor with the same size and construction house bought two tanks of oil at ~$700 each. I bought 1 tank and only used half of it. I haven't gotten into his electric bills, but in comparison to my dad's house which is gas/electric, I don't pay that much more than he does.

I don't mean to come off as a geothermal hater, I'm not. I like it a lot and if I was going to plant some roots and stick in my house for 30-40 years, I would go for it. It's just a lot of money for the average person to lay down. If you decide to go for it, look up Steve Kavanaugh.

Sorry for rambling.

 

[E.Shell]

I'm with DZ. I was General Manager for a luxury home builder in the Annapolis/Edgewater area for 20 years and build many houses between 5,000 and 20,000 square feet.

The main benefit of geothermal is that you get to feel green and can brag about it to your friends. There is no real savings for MANY years, and about the time you actually have your additional equipment investment paid for with energy savings (15 or more years), the stuff has reached the end of it's life cycle and starts to die, so you never truly put a dollar back into your pocket.

Installation is usually very complicated, space consuming and don't forget that the pair of wells for each zone is not usually included in the costs of the equipment for the sake of hyping/selling it's economy. Wells add complication and one must have plenty of room to install these wells away from domestic water and any sewer/septic installations

DZ's numbers are right on for the equipment itself, and I usually see the geothermal options cost 3x a good, solid high efficiency system.

IOW, it's time has not yet come, and until energy costs jump up some more, it is not really an investment in economy, only a reduction in fossil fuel consumption.

 

[DZ]

I think the real problems encountered with geothermal systems are:

-Poor system design
-Drilling the wells too close to each other
-Cost of the wells

I took an unrelated class with a guy who was the son of an owner of an HVAC company in Kansas. Basically, the cost of well drilling is much cheaper and therefore a lot more people have them.

Minuteman - if you are serious, take a basic design class from Steve Kavanaugh (see Heatspring Learning Institute) to get an idea of what you are getting into. He knows how to make a geothermal system work. His number one reminder is: KISS.

 

[Inigoes]

I looked into Geothermal a couple of years ago, and the return on investment just isn't there for me.

Installation costs run anywhere from $10-15K, which would take a lifetime or more to recoup.

 

[Jimbob2.0]

I looked into Geothermal a couple of years ago, and the return on investment just isn't there for me.

Installation costs run anywhere from $10-15K, which would take a lifetime or more to recoup.

$10 to $15 is low if you are calculating that before incentives. In Central Maryland we are finding $20k to $30 is the norm for average size homes of around 2200 sq ft before incentives. After incentives, some of which you will not receive for many years like the Montgomery County property tax credit, you are talking $10 to $20. Perhaps more depending on the site characteristics.

 

[iHasCrabs]

My parents just had this done a little over a year ago. The total cost was about $50k. After tax credits and incentives they will make their money back in about 4-5 years. They're electric bills went from about 1400 in the summer to 500-600 pretty significant savings. They also looked into solar power years ago but that would have taken them 40 years to get their money back. The geothermal system is awesome and works great. They had a super old system and had all new duct work done and 2 ac units put in. They are very happy they did it.

 

[Ab_Normal]

My parents just had this done a little over a year ago. The total cost was about $50k. After tax credits and incentives they will make their money back in about 4-5 years. They're electric bills went from about 1400 in the summer to 500-600 pretty significant savings. They also looked into solar power years ago but that would have taken them 40 years to get their money back. The geothermal system is awesome and works great. They had a super old system and had all new duct work done and 2 ac units put in. They are very happy they did it.

HOW BIG IS THEIR HOTEL HOUSE?

 

[metalman3006]

If you would like to talk, send me a pm and I will give you my number. I am a small HVAC contractor that does a fair amount of geothermal installations. As stated there are tax credits to take advantage of and if you are already in the market for new equipment it may be doable for you. I work mostly on the mid-shore and Anne Arundel county area. My cost on a change out is @ $5000 to $6000 per ton depending on your installation situation, size of equipment, and options.

 

[Minuteman]

Seems to be consensus, thanks gents (I only plan to live in this house ~5 more years). Here's one of my buddies advice:
TRANE 16i scroll pump dual speed compressor unit.
The 19i has two piston pumps, twice as much to break.
Scroll pumps have far less moving parts and gives you two stage performance.
Got the variable speed furnace fan 80VX Furnace, air flow triggered UV biocide lamp,
humidifier and moved the compressor to the side of the house with new 240VAC service.
(you helped me build the base for it) New thermostat included with all sheet metal work. All for 7600.00

 

[Minuteman]

Another buddy likes this Popular Science Award winner:



I'm sure this is very expensive, and probably not available here in Maryland. Just thought I would share. I still want to do some cost estimates for geo-thermal compared to these units.

 

[montoya32]

You cannot use your current water well for the ground loop. They will need to drill a new well and grout the tubing into it. The savings all depends on the size of your home. I have sold many houses new and old with it and it is a great feature for resale and, with current energy prices, you will probably pay for itself in 7-9 years. Geothermal is a "closed" system and usually requires less maint and lasts longer. If I were building a new home, I would definitely have it, for a current home, the costs may out way the benefits and value of your home.

 

[rsideout]

I went with a geothermal system when I built my house in 2007-2008. I'm happy with the system and would do one again. It cost roughly 2x that of a conventional high efficiency system. One cost savings measure that we did was to go horizontal, instead of vertical with the geo-loop. The looper(Easterday Well) recommended this change. It saved me $9,300, but took up about 3/4 of an acre. I've got about 2,000' of geo-loop piping, 7-11' under the front yard.

DZ has some very good points on cost effectivenss for high SEER heat pumps vs. geothermal systems. Given the cost, this is probably a better alternative for the majority of homeowners looking to upgrade.

 

[DZ]

rsideout - If you don't mind me asking, who was your HVAC installer and approximately what was your cost per ton?

How many heat pumps do you have and how many zones?

 

[rsideout]

rsideout - If you don't mind me asking, who was your HVAC installer and approximately what was your cost per ton?

How many heat pumps do you have and how many zones?

Total Comfort Heating and Air Conditioning. WaterFurnace equipment with hot water assist. 2 indoor air handlers, 3 zones (WaterFurnace Intelizoning System for the basement), 7.5 tons. It was about $6.5K/ton(4 years ago), but that included everything for a complete new home install, plus upgrades.

 

[rsideout]

The main benefit of geothermal is that you get to feel green and can brag about it to your friends.

Feeling green was never a consideration for me. I just wanted a VERY efficient HVAC system to go with the other energy efficient measures that I put in the new house. We plan on being here for a long time. It is however, cool to be the only kid in my neighborhood with one of these systems.

 

[2SAM22]

Had a geothermal system when I lived on Kent Island. It was a PITA and I didn't see any cost reduction from it, just bills from getting it repaired. Also finding someone who knows how to work on them can be difficult, but that may have changed in the last decade.

 

[JOBU]

We have a geo-thermal unit in our condo. It works fine and does reduce our heating costs. Not much our cooling, but we still save a few $$ on average.