Geothermal energy.

[Deep Creek Rock]

For heating - I went to wood pellet stove - Harman P68A. Totally automatic -far safer than any fireplace or gas furnace. Just set the temp you want the house to stay at, and it does all the work precisely. Costs me $900- $1000 dollars to heat my house from October until late April, during Garrett Co., long cold season. That price is using 4 tons of wood pellets (50 40lb bags per ton). The Gov was giving $1500 tax credit for installing a pellet stoves (qualifies as green energy) not sure if they still have that program running.

I know some that have Geothermal - they had it put in when the home was built. Putting one in after a house is built is costly, and as other have stated, takes years to get back the cost.

 

[e40bib]

If you already have a well for water, I wonder if you can use the water in it for your ground loop heat exchanger? I think the water stays a constant temperature.

No, geo needs more than one well. best is a closed loop system it's like a radiator.

 

[e40bib]

With these energy prices, and potential for power issues, I've all but decided to go with geothermal for heating/cooling, hot water and I think there is even geothermal electric generation?

My current HVAC is nearly 20 years old, getting hard to find parts and isn't very efficient.

I live in central MD; any advice appreciated!

http://www.darvill.clara.net/altenerg/geothermal.htm

Avoid the water heating, my first system had it and it's more trouble than it's worth. In the dead of winter when your system calls for hot water your heat turns off then when it's done your system is running in overdrive trying to heat the house back up.

 

[e40bib]

If you already have a well for water, I wonder if you can use the water in it for your ground loop heat exchanger? I think the water stays a constant temperature.

Also it's not the ground "water" tempature, it's the ground tempature below the frost line- 55 degrees year round.

 

[aehnuke]

The first step should be to get an energy audit done at your house. Chances are your house is poorly insulated and leaky. Once you have a solid building envelope, then start looking at geothermal. The same applies to solar, especially if you have an older home: you will never see the benefits if your house is just wasting heat to the outside (or letting it in). Ground-source heat pumps are great and are the most efficient option, but as everyone has said, they can be three times as expensive as a normal high-efficiency heat pump.

 

[rsideout]

Avoid the water heating, my first system had it and it's more trouble than it's worth. In the dead of winter when your system calls for hot water your heat turns off then when it's done your system is running in overdrive trying to heat the house back up.

I've got the water assist on my system. It works great. Never had a problem with it affecting the HVAC output. I can shut the breaker off to my hotwater heater, and I'll still have hot water.

My understanding of the water assist is that it takes any "extra" heat in the heat cycle and dumps it into the hot water heater. In the cooling cycle, it takes the heat that would normally be sent to ground loop coils outside, and puts it in the hot water heater. Once the hot water temperature gets to the maximum setting, it stops sending this "extra" heat to the water heater and sends it back outside.

 

[rsideout]

I had a discussion this morning with the owner of the company that installed my system. He said that there's a 30% tax credit in place for high efficiency upgrades. This tax credit runs through 2016. With the slowdown in new construction, the majority of his work is now high efficiency upgrades. This year he's only done 5 new home geothermal systems. However, they've done approximately 60 geothermal systems as upgrades.

 

[DZ]

I had a discussion this morning with the owner of the company that installed my system. He said that there's a 30% tax credit in place for high efficiency upgrades. This tax credit runs through 2016. With the slowdown in new construction, the majority of his work is now high efficiency upgrades. This year he's only done 5 new home geothermal systems. However, they've done approximately 60 geothermal systems as upgrades.

dsireusa.org

 

[joemac]

Some good info here. I sold and installed HVAC for about 8 years. Nobody here has asked what tonnage you need as this will dictate cost.

My cost on geo was about $6500 per ton. Wells are about $2000 each and I always did 1 well per ton.

Definitely get a energy audit done. One where they do a blower door test. I did these for about 2 years too. You could probably upgrade insulation first and after that have your duct system sealed and most have undersized returns.

When I was in sales, geo was not an option I recommended unless they were going to die in that house. If you are moving on go with a high efficiency air to air unit. Depending on your tonnage my experience is that these will run $8-12K maybe more if it is really big like 5 tons.

You can PM me if you have any specific questions, I'd be glad to help if I can but I won't go near another heat pump.

 

[e40bib]

I've got the water assist on my system. It works great. Never had a problem with it affecting the HVAC output. I can shut the breaker off to my hotwater heater, and I'll still have hot water.

My understanding of the water assist is that it takes any "extra" heat in the heat cycle and dumps it into the hot water heater. In the cooling cycle, it takes the heat that would normally be sent to ground loop coils outside, and puts it in the hot water heater. Once the hot water temperature gets to the maximum setting, it stops sending this "extra" heat to the water heater and sends it back outside.

I had a heck of a time with mine, this was also 13 years ago so they may be better now. Other than that I'm heating a cooling a 3500 square foot house 2 zones and the highest bill i had was 300.00 one month that's with everything being electric except hot water, dryer and cooktop. I did not care about being "green" when I got it I just wanted to save money. If I remember the cost was 7000.00 to install I went with trenches and I love it!

 

[rsideout]

dsireusa.org

+1 Good source.

DZ, just curious if you see any ground source geothermal systems going in for any of your commercial projects? I can't imagine many developers doing it unless they were specifically shooting for a Platinum or Gold LEED rating......and short of points without other options.

 

[sooner]

I put one in last year because I'm thrifty, frugal, nah, make that cheap.
I'll leave the feeling green to frogs, lizards and tree huggers. (I say drill baby drill)
The up front cost was pretty steep but the rebates and tax credits dropped the price almost in half.
My electric bill plummeted and I don't have that outrageous heating oil bill anymore.
System works like a charm. Go with a closed loop system,
Stay away from the open loop system, while cheaper up front it seems to have problems.
The equipment takes up less room and there is no outside unit making all that crappy fan noise while your sitting on your deck.
Biggest thing is to find a reputable dealer/installer.

 

[rsideout]

I put one in last year because I'm thrifty, frugal, nah, make that cheap.
I'll leave the feeling green to frogs, lizards and tree huggers. (I say drill baby drill)
The up front cost was pretty steep but the rebates and tax credits dropped the price almost in half.
My electric bill plummeted and I don't have that outrageous heating oil bill anymore.
System works like a charm. Go with a closed loop system,
Stay away from the open loop system, while cheaper up front it seems to have problems.
The equipment takes up less room and there is no outside unit making all that crappy fan noise while your sitting on your deck.
Biggest thing is to find a reputable dealer/installer.

Who was your HVAC contractor? And who did your wells?

+1000 on the benefits of no noise from an outside unit. I really love that feature.

 

[Jim12]

Thread resurrection, for obvious reasons. Energy costs and government (over)regulation.

Are we entering the golden age of geothermal energy? – DW – 01/04/2023

Despite its advantages, geothermal energy has seen limited use compared to fossil fuels. Find out how this renewable source is gaining ground and what benefits it offers.

www.dw.com

Geothermal energy poised for boom, as U.S. looks to follow Iceland’s lead

Traditionally, geothermal energy has only been economical in places like Iceland, where heat and water are close to the Earth’s surface. Recent technological advances may solve that problem, and some experts believe development of the sector, including digging deep into the Earth, could reduce...

nz.news.yahoo.com

 

[Alan3413]

Looking at Geo for the next heat pump. How does that compare costs wise to air source? How many installers are there that can do this well?

 

[Wayne]

There are now TONS of installers. Almost everyone above a mom-and-pop shop does and some of the mom-and-pops also.

We replaced our 15 YO POS geothermal with a Water Furnace last year from TN Bowes and we couldn't be happier.

We have never heated this house with air source or anything else. The HVAC was shot when we bought it. Theres lots of info out there comparing costs.

 

[Slowhand]

I've fantasized about a pond loop system for years. Never happen here as MD DoE, DNR, Army Corp of Eng, and AACo would all have to be involved.

 

[traveller]

Holy thread resurrection batman !

I have two geothermal systems that came with the house when I bought it I. 2016. Both are on horizontal loops One is a split unit with the air handler in the attic, the other is a 'package' system. Both were Lennox when I bought the house but for some reason every part number had a crosswalk to a corresponding water furnace part........

Both units eventually died. The split in 2018 due to a normal HVAC problem (leaky coil). It was a R12 system so replacing just the coil was not an option. The new unit was expensive as sh¡t compared with a air-air, but going that route would have required a lot of additional construction as there is no good place to put outside compressors. So I wrote the check and except for the occasional failures and unplanned service calls related to the water loop it has been ok.

The package unit died last April. Took water furnace 3 months to build the replacement (they did away with the option of rushing an order in a 'hot house' situation). So I wrote a painful check and the system got replaced. Based on the power bills it appears that the old system had lost much of it's efficiency, so going from 22 year old to a new system made a big difference.

Here are the downsides as I see them:

- there are no hybrid units available from water furnace. Your backup heat is always resistive electric so if you want to be on a generator, you need a ginormous unit.

- you are limited to a few local service people who know the fack what they are doing. Your average HVAC tech has no idea and there is a a high potential of them facking things up further when they try to fix things. One mom&pop guy who was helpful retired when he was in his 80s, the other got bought out by a competitor and retired as well.

- the controls are proprietary and if it gets wonky there is a lot of 'it should be this board and we ordered one' troubleshooting. Meanwhile your house is hot or cold.

Sooo, next house will be 1/2 the size of this one and it will have the highest SEER air-air unit available with a conventional thermostat on the market at that time: Turn on ---> blow cold is all I care about.

 

[outrider58]

I could use a little geothermal heat right about now. Our heat is on the fritz in our shop. 63° and dropping...

 

[KRC]

We have an older model 6ton R20 based unit with six 300' deep vertical groundpipe loops. I have kept the 3 zone system functioning myself as the manufacturer is long since gone and service calls are ridiculously expensive. It's great in the winter for heating (our primary in the winter is a Jotul woodstove), but really shines in the summer for AC cooling without worrying about the cost.

While I think geothermal may be the future of home climate control for new home construction (where feasible), I'm with those that advise the ROI for a conversion is many years, so a conversion may not be cost effective and careful, realistic, cost analysis is required. Price estimates from qualified vendors for a replacement geothermal heat pump using the existing wells and dustwork have been VERY high. I suspect obscene profit margins are the norm.