Katanas!

[Nemesis]

I can see how one might believe this to be the case but it is unfortunately a fallacy comparable to saying a Davis .380 is a hell of a gun a member of Delta Force might proudly select over an HK. Why specifically?

Cheness swords are decent beginners blades only after they have been properly rebuilt...and I personally have bought and completely rebuilt a half dozen of them over the years because the mounting fittings, tsuka wood, same' rayskin panels, habaki blade collars, saya sheaths, ito handle wraps, etc. are constructed of the absolutely cheapest pot metal, scrap wood, plastic, cotton "shoelace", etc. and are practically unusable as is. You would have a far more functional Cheness sword from the factory if you simply stripped the thing to a bare blade and wrapped hockey stick tape around the handle.

If you are interested in a reasonably priced beginner sword, again, go to the links I posted and select one. Cheness sword blades are made of average-to-decent modern steel but are thorough-hardened(softer and not as sharp or good at holding their edge) compared to a REAL differentially-tempered sword of better materials, craftsmanship and lineage. If you want to buy and presumably use a japanese-style sword for something besides "plinking", you need one that won't fail you or let you down when you can least afford it. I still own one today that I COMPLETELY rebuilt for the simple reason it matches another better sword I own and when I want to practice with it and cut heavier targets, I can do so w/o putting mileage on one of my expensive swords.

Your points regarding steel are only partially correct. Modern steels are as a starting point/raw material more homogeneous and "clean" than hand-smelted tamahagane but the various folding and lamination techniques used by traditional japanese sword smiths were not just intended to make steel for bar stock but to make steel sword blades that are hard and sharp where they need to be(the cutting edge) and softer and more resilient where they need to be(the spine). Making a functional sword(besides a foil, epee, etc.) that has the proper weight, balance, flex and other handling characteristics requires a little more skill than hammering out bar stock industrial steel into a familiar shape.

Again, the Cheness blades are decent for what they are but a Yugo will never tear up the Nurburgring lap time records even if you slap a turbo on it. They are simply outclassed by an astonishing margin and you are unwittingly suggesting that the artistry and expertise of a mass-produced mall kiosk portrait is somehow equivalent to that of a Van Gogh. You get what you pay for in this world most of the time and blades are no less indicative of this reality than firearms. Do you need to drop $3K-$6K on a sword to get a decent weapon? No, but you better damned well be spending more that $150-250 unless you want the sword equivalent of jams, misfires and FTEs always lurking in the wings and waiting for the most inopportune moment possible.

FWIW, here's a few old pics of the only Cheness sword I still own which started out life as a 30" Shura model before I replaced every worthless component on it. It now has a custom-fitted cured hickory tsuka, real iron and water-buffalo horn fittings and silk ito from Japan, a full same' rayskin wrap of the entire tsuka, sea snake skin reinforcements of the saya joining seams, a real smoked bamboo retention peg or mekugi, etc.

So obviously your biggest issue here is the handle lol...

Heres the thing...you cannot compare "melee"(as i call them) weapons with firearms, or cars, or anything else...all of these things follow different rules. I also never said that some cheap stainless steel rat tail thing from the mall would be anywhere near a useable weapon...but cheness, dark sword armory, zombie toold, ect all make weapons that are more than combat ready...while you may not like the cheapness of the handle work from cheness i think it is a good thing. Why? Because if you dont like it then you can change it and its no feelings hurt or money wasted. I will agree that a harder edge will stay sharper longer (go figure) however a harder edge will also chip and take damage easier...beyond that, why does it matter? These are tools designed for slicing flesh bone...not for trimming the bushes or hacking up some rolled up mats...sure its a fun, as you say compared it "plinking" pass time, but neither of these tasks are going to really wear down an edge very much, and any edge will eventully need to be resharpened. The fact is though that even a butter knife can slice flesh, you dont need a razor, though it goes a long way to have a sharp edge.

Im also not one to put alot of mystic spiritual crap into my weapons, maybe thats my problem. Their tools, just like my cars, my guns, my hammers and my knives...

Also, while i like the katana, i understand that its not the be all end all weapon...and frankly the argument of balance and weight is as personal as it is factual. For every general blade design there are many, many sub designs...some are better than others but it is not a one size fits all thing. Personally, im partial to one handed weapons, or hand-and-a-half weapons...so a wakizashi feels better to me. Really though, like i said before, the katana was not used in real combat very often...just like the rest of the world the spear was the main work horse there. Swords are a fairly poor option against decent armor, and those that were designed to be used againt armor were pretty much just long daggers. Fact is there are many weapons that can cut like a katana, several one handed designs even...cutting is finess, not power and you dont need 2 hands to achieve that.

I just get a real sence of katana elitisim from you, so ill just let it go at this point...for you its not about its usefulness as a tool so much as it is the tradition and classic art form...and really, thats fine...cant knock it on those grounds.


Beautiful sword, by the way.

 

[llkoolkeg]

So obviously your biggest issue here is the handle lol...

Heres the thing...you cannot compare "melee"(as i call them) weapons with firearms, or cars, or anything else...all of these things follow different rules. I also never said that some cheap stainless steel rat tail thing from the mall would be anywhere near a useable weapon...but cheness, dark sword armory, zombie toold, ect all make weapons that are more than combat ready...while you may not like the cheapness of the handle work from cheness i think it is a good thing. Why? Because if you dont like it then you can change it and its no feelings hurt or money wasted. I will agree that a harder edge will stay sharper longer (go figure) however a harder edge will also chip and take damage easier...beyond that, why does it matter? These are tools designed for slicing flesh bone...not for trimming the bushes or hacking up some rolled up mats...sure its a fun, as you say compared it "plinking" pass time, but neither of these tasks are going to really wear down an edge very much, and any edge will eventully need to be resharpened. The fact is though that even a butter knife can slice flesh, you dont need a razor, though it goes a long way to have a sharp edge.

Im also not one to put alot of mystic spiritual crap into my weapons, maybe thats my problem. Their tools, just like my cars, my guns, my hammers and my knives...

Also, while i like the katana, i understand that its not the be all end all weapon...and frankly the argument of balance and weight is as personal as it is factual. For every general blade design there are many, many sub designs...some are better than others but it is not a one size fits all thing. Personally, im partial to one handed weapons, or hand-and-a-half weapons...so a wakizashi feels better to me. Really though, like i said before, the katana was not used in real combat very often...just like the rest of the world the spear was the main work horse there. Swords are a fairly poor option against decent armor, and those that were designed to be used againt armor were pretty much just long daggers. Fact is there are many weapons that can cut like a katana, several one handed designs even...cutting is finess, not power and you dont need 2 hands to achieve that.

I just get a real sence of katana elitisim from you, so ill just let it go at this point...for you its not about its usefulness as a tool so much as it is the tradition and classic art form...and really, thats fine...cant knock it on those grounds.

Beautiful sword, by the way.

Not trying to argue at all, man, but merely share some personal knowledge I've gained from studying, rebuilding, testing and collecting them for many years. My issues with the handles come from disassembling a half-dozen Cheness swords(which, again, I like the blades of in terms of value) and finding the wood split along the spine and edge and held together by the wraps alone. This is because the tangs are not consistently thick as borne out by my micrometer, not finished properly with filed retention grooves, not fit to each blade individually but by assembly line process, made of cheap pine-esque soft wood and hammered on to the tangs after already wrapped which is totally ass-backwards. Of the half dozen I bought, only one did not have a split tsuka, broken kashira and shifty wraps. There have been several injuries and many more close calls resulting from blades being inadvertently released from their handles during hard use and becoming flying 3' & 3# razor blades.

The reason edge hardness is so crucial besides edge retention is because it is what largely affects how well a blade cuts through different materials. All else being equal, harder edges cut deeper, more efficiently and can penetrate layers much more effectively. If you hit bare skin, the difference is not great, but once you hit sinew, muscle and bone, the difference is great and if you have to penetrate layers of clothes or a leather jacket, etc, the harder and sharper edge can slice through what a softer edge will only compress and bludgeon. Think of it like a diamond or carbide edge drill bit versus one without such a coating- you can drill some materials until the bit is smoking and heat-blued but still not penetrate at all if the thing being drilled is not soft or compliant enough. You'd be surprised how even a few layers of thin fabric, which give when layered against flesh, can prove difficult to cut all the way through with a softer-edged sword.

No argument on shorter inside or close quarters swords as I have over twice as many of those as katanas. No argument on firearms vs. blades & such either; I just like to have backups in case ammo supply runs low(like now).

I do argue that I am not an elitist, however. None of the swords I own are historical, precious Japanese artifacts but swords forged and mounted by the best American swordsmiths with the finest modern tool steels and materials available w/o a focus on form over function at all. I own no wall-hangers or display pieces and if having a few nice fully-functional ones and being able to appreciate the differences from those that aren't = elitist, I take issue less with you than with your dictionary.

I started collecting them a long time ago and funded my nicer ones by rebuilding and reselling the less awesome ones. I frankly wish my firearms collection was as nice as many of the ones folks around here display but I have not learned gunsmithing yet so cannot utilize a similar method to improve my collection. Believe me- if I was able to in this market, I would happily trade a couple of my $4K-5K swords for a Barrett M82A1 or Browning M2 but nobody has offered yet. Until that happens, I'll just have to make due with having very good swords(Anthony DiCristofano, Rick Barrett, Jesus Hernandez, Randall Graham, etc.) and pretty good guns(Glocks, Rugers, DPMS, Mossburg, etc.). No blue blood at all running through these veins, sir.

 

[Nemesis]

Fair enough, i called you an elitist based on two things:
1. Seems eariler you referred to makers such as cheness as simply making "sword-like-objects"
2. Your correction of their given issue, and perhaps assumed only way you see to qualify as a true sword, was to replace the fittings and stuff with traditional materials.

While i really dont have an issue with this...i had an issue with the whole "sword-like-objects" thing. While i agree that the crap wall hangers are under this title, i dont think that TH blades such as cheness or dark sword armory, ect fall in this group. The measure of a sword first and foremost is its blade and these do check out in that area. I cant argue that cheness has cheap handles, that is very true...but (forgive the gun comparison) it like saiga rifles...the ruskies know the stock and forend are cheap...but they also know people are going to replace it anyway so keeping it cheap keeps the price down.

Correct me here, if im wrong...in my research i found that the 9260 spring steel blades seem to be tempered to about 53-55 rc, while diff hardened blades run 60 rc edge and 40-50 (depending) spine...would seem to me that 5rc is not much, granted yes it does make a slight difference.

 

[Jackson923]

Tag for later reading and info.

 

[llkoolkeg]

Fair enough, i called you an elitist based on two things:
1. Seems eariler you referred to makers such as cheness as simply making "sword-like-objects"
2. Your correction of their given issue, and perhaps assumed only way you see to qualify as a true sword, was to replace the fittings and stuff with traditional materials.

While i really dont have an issue with this...i had an issue with the whole "sword-like-objects" thing. While i agree that the crap wall hangers are under this title, i dont think that TH blades such as cheness or dark sword armory, ect fall in this group. The measure of a sword first and foremost is its blade and these do check out in that area. I cant argue that cheness has cheap handles, that is very true...but (forgive the gun comparison) it like saiga rifles...the ruskies know the stock and forend are cheap...but they also know people are going to replace it anyway so keeping it cheap keeps the price down.

Correct me here, if im wrong...in my research i found that the 9260 spring steel blades seem to be tempered to about 53-55 rc, while diff hardened blades run 60 rc edge and 40-50 (depending) spine...would seem to me that 5rc is not much, granted yes it does make a slight difference.

I believe it was someone else who used the SLO term but no big deal. I think there is a place for thorough hardened blades definitely which is why I still own one. As you previously noted, chipping of the edge can happen with differentially tempered blades when striking something "uncuttable" like a ma deuce gun barrel so there is a trade-off to consider when getting that ultra-sharp DT sword.

Because the edges of japanese style swords are made by sharpening the whole face of both sides of the blade and not just the edge portion, they are quite problematic to resharpen. This is an often-overlooked consideration when buying a sword of this type and one not to be underestimated. It is a highly specialized skillset to be a togishi and training 50x beyond what I know is required to master it. I have never attempted to resharpen any japanese style sword because they have no secondary edge bevel. In the simplest terms, you can't just true up the edge with ceramic sticks or an arkansas stone when dulled without messing up the sword's geometry and making it harder to resharpen correctly by someone who knows how to do it...and that skillset does not come cheap(basically, it would cost more to resharpen a cheness sword than they cost brand new).

This is where the dilemma often presents- do I buy a better, sharper and much more expensive sword that I'm less likely to have to resharpen anytime soon unless I fvck up?

~or~

do I buy a much more inexpensive though less effective weapon that dulls more easily and will need resharpening much more often if used though the cost to do so exceed a new weapon?

I personally say the answer is YES!

They both have their place. I like my remounted TH cheness because even though it is not as refined or effective as my DT swords, I know I can use it until the cows come home and not do anything worse than dull it even if I screw up and scoop a cut or strike a nail or other piece of metal possibly lodged in a target. I will eventually have to resharpen it, though, but because it has a simulated hamon, any proper resharpening will ruin the appearance of the sword. For that reason and the cost prohibitive expense, I will ultimately use ceramic sticks very precisely and install a secondary bevel though I cringe knowing in advance I'll have to do this. Basically, it's the lesser of evils because besides the expense, carving a hardwood tsuka and remounting a brand new cheness blade is no small task.

Regarding the cheness blades resiliency and resistance to becoming permanently bent or damaged, it has very little to do with the 9260 steel and much more to do with the TH heat treatment(sometimes referred to as a spring temper because it bends w/o taking a set). For example, the Bugei TH swords do not use 9260 with 2% silicon content but instead, use 1060, 1065, 1070 and 1075(the last two digits equating to 6.0%-7.5% carbon content), Hanwei/Paul Chen have used TH 5260 and frankly, when thorough hardened, the differences between them all are negligible. It is the having one comparatively softer hardness throughout the whole blade that yields the almost indestructibility as demonstrated in videos.

There are only three companies that make differentially tempered swords that are every bit as tough to kill as a TH sword and those are the ones who have shown the ability to create bainite crystallization during heat treat in alloyed tool steels like L6. They are truly DT with real hamons and edges in the 60 rockwells range and cut like nothing else. Those makers are Howard Clark(the original and best), Butouken/Martial Arts Swords of Korea(I owned one of these for years), and Paul Chen/Hanwei whose partnership with Bugei led to Howard Clark sharing the secret of his heat treatment with their master smith.

Bottom line- if you want the best of both worlds, an incredibly durable sword with a real hamon, a ~60 rockwells edge and all the other bells and whistles in a traditional type sword, you go with a Howard Clark L6 for $7K-10K, a MAS/Butouken L6 for $1750-$2250, or a Paul Chen/Hanwei L6 for $1250-$1750.

Regarding your question about rockwell hardness, companies that mass produce their weapons and rely on larger volume with very small margins tend to exaggerate a little bit when it comes to stated hardness to differentiate themselves from the wallhanger crowd. The numbers are actually often closer to 50 which can be verified w/o damaging the polished portion of the blade thanks to having only one hardness throughout- you can scratch test them under the tsuka where it won't show.

 

[Nemesis]

Those bainite l6 blades are amazing, theres no arguing that...if i had 10 grand i would be all over one...i would still have the issue of being scared to use it though, its not like any of my firearms, even though their multi thousand dollar builds their not really special, if i break something oh well its plug and play...i scratch a one of a kind howard clark blade...i think i might cry a little lol

I may test the rc of one...im thinking about get one of their sgc line wakizashi...their website doesnt even state a rc, so i had to do some google-fu. Even at 53 rc i see that as being a very good hardness for an edge in terms of a true combat weapon. The kabar blades i have seem to hold up just fine edge wise (considering their all factory sharp, and even at that they will clean cut paper, even though thats really not the best test for how sharp a edge is lol) and i am pretty hard on those...they get a steady diet of mixed hardwood...both dead and dry and fresh and wet.

 

[Billcw]

POS in my estimation. Looks nice but all the twists in the metal shaft detract from the proper use of a battleaxe. Correct martial technique for a 2-handed battleaxe requires a long smooth shaft because you need to slide one hand up and down the shaft depending on whether you are attacking, parrying, or need more leverage. A one handed axe should not have a shaft longer than 24" below the head even if the wielder is some kind of 7' 300# Norseman. Regardless of what you see in the media showy custom axes would be for show not real combat. You put them on the wall and when you need one you grab the one you chop wood with. Or find yourself a really good repro of the Danish bearded axe used by both the Scandanavians and Saxons. As long as the blade is good steel and it is mounted on a haft of a wood dense enough to stop sword blades you will be as well equipped as any Viking. Nobody used a double headed or spiked axe from the ground in those days. That came when plate armour was in style later to try and punch thru the armour. However finding someone to teach you the art of the battleaxe would be hard (I'm too old).
Even in its heyday at around the turn of the 1st millenium most used a hand axe because they could not afford a good sword. A couple of groups specialized in the long axe, the most well known were the Saxon Housecarls who formed the personal guard of the English Kings and Earls in the Viking era and the Byzantine Empire's Varangian Guard.

I have to strongly disagree ...the axe pictured is far from a POS .. Do you know anything about the maker to even make that claim .