Leave Your Guns At Home, Howard County

[TopTechAgent]

The question is, who would you like to replace him? Courtney Watson?

This is kind of like Hogan.

Both Hogan and Kittleman know their base does not want to see a flaming liberal elected, so they have the backing of their base at the voting booth. However, they also know that they need to cater to enough people that are middle of the road to help them win the election.

This reminds me of the round table meeting that Howard County Schools had after Newtown. We discussed how to improve school safety, and the lady sitting next to me said, "We should put signs on the school to let people know that it is illegal to bring guns into the school." She was shocked when I told her that the signs were already in place and she had walked right by one when she entered the building, and she obviously did not see it at all. Think I offended her. Of course, I went on and asked her exactly how that sign would stop somebody bent on murdering children, from bringing a gun into the school? She was silent.

Yep, signs and laws are really going to stop somebody bent on killing. No doubt about that. SARCASM!!!!!!!!!!

Agree with you. Courtney wasn't going to get my vote, that's for sure.

I was at those school meetings as well. Participated in the break out sessions to come up with "IDEAS". Nobody wanted to hear about armed security guards. Instead the classrooms all got new walls and video security.

According to my son, a student wandered out of his elementary school and made it to the busy road before the staff new he left the building.

Yeah, those schools are REAL SECURE.

 

[TopTechAgent]

Feel Free To Use this

 

[fabsroman]

Agree with you. Courtney wasn't going to get my vote, that's for sure.

I was at those school meetings as well. Participated in the break out sessions to come up with "IDEAS". Nobody wanted to hear about armed security guards. Instead the classrooms all got new walls and video security.

According to my son, a student wandered out of his elementary school and made it to the busy road before the staff new he left the building.

Yeah, those schools are REAL SECURE.

Yep, I took pics of the break out sheets we made that were hung up after the session. All of them had a ton of dots by the "armed security guard" in topic #1. However, when the report came out, the Chief of Police said that if given additional resources, he would rather have more officers on patrol than in schools. I still have the report in pdf format.

Thing is, what if he was given more funding that was specifically ear marked for officers at schools, and was not given the option to choose between officers in schools or more officers on the street?

In the current climate, you would think that officers in the school would be good to 1) protect the kids and 2) develop a relationship with the kids.

I'm trying not to get indigestion right now.

 

[HarCo2ANewb]

I'll see if I can broach this with him and try to get a good feel on his actual stance. My neighborhood of 8 homes has very deep ties into just about every part of the local gov, mostly due to how many times we have beaten them on a variety of issues.

From what we have seen, the biggest problem facing Kittleman right now is that the entire county gov is basically non-functioning. No established advisors want to hitch their wagons to a potential one - and - done so he is surrounded by a bunch of 20-somethings who have little to no real world experience.

I think, despite him signing this, any support shown to him now can only help us for the rest of his term.

 

[smokey]

Yep, I took pics of the break out sheets we made that were hung up after the session. All of them had a ton of dots by the "armed security guard" in topic #1. However, when the report came out, the Chief of Police said that if given additional resources, he would rather have more officers on patrol than in schools. I still have the report in pdf format.

Thing is, what if he was given more funding that was specifically ear marked for officers at schools, and was not given the option to choose between officers in schools or more officers on the street?

In the current climate, you would think that officers in the school would be good to 1) protect the kids and 2) develop a relationship with the kids.

I'm trying not to get indigestion right now.

Putting officers in schools costs a lot of money. Giving teachers a legal pathway to carry at work is free...hell, it can even generate revenue. A SRO at school can't be everywhere at once and is highly visible. If someone were to go through the trouble of attacking a school, it would take 10 seconds of planning to realize you should probably take out the SRO first in a surprise attack so you can go on uninterrupted. With teachers carrying concealed, nobody knows who may suddenly act to defend their students and coworkers with a firearm if a threat is present.

As a howard county teacher, I see vulnerability after vulnerability in my school. I don't want to lay out a planbook for anyone that reads this that may wish to do harm, so I won't mention them...but in essentially every scenario, the presence of a voluntarily armed faculty can end a threat and reduce the damage an attacker can do. If I'm outside with two PE classes(60 kids) and a recess(another 130), any threat coming up to the property from any access point has about 200 defenseless people as a target. What are locks on doors, a phone call for police to come in 10 minutes, or a SRO inside the building going to do if someone decides to attack? In contrast, as someone who has grown up with guns, has training in defensive firearm use, and has a couple carry permits, I could just draw my own firearm and meet the threat with force...to either stop the threat, or make them turn their attention to me to buy time for the students to make their way to safety.

While I think the 2A explicity prevents the government from infringing on our natural rights to keep and bear arms in any way, as a realist I understand that our society may want armed teachers to be trained and certified before they may carry at work. Really the only thing that's different between the SRO's that carry their glocks on their hips in hoco schools and everyone else is that society believes those SRO's are trained. I'll gladly pay out of my own pocket to receive training and certification to prove competency if it means I'll have the tool to best defend my students against a violent attack. I'd expect the training to be specific to emergencies in the educational setting. I'd also expect that training to be useful for not only violent threats, but for any emergency. Teachers that go through such training would be an invaluable resource for their school's emergency preparedness committee.

There's really no better way to explain why teachers carrying is beneficial than a brief thought exercise based in reality. Dawn Hochsprung confronted the shooter at sandy hook when he first entered the building. She was the principal and she tried her best to stop him, but was shot and killed because she was unarmed. After the shooter killed her, he proceeded into the building to kill 20 children. Now go back in time and place a holstered gun on Principal Hochsprung's hip. She sees the shooter break into the front office with guns, intent on causing harm and draws her pistol. Do those 20 kids still die?

 

[toddtrain]

If you are looking for a good realtor so you can move to Carroll County let me know

 

[6pack]

Putting officers in schools costs a lot of money. Giving teachers a legal pathway to carry at work is free...hell, it can even generate revenue. A SRO at school can't be everywhere at once and is highly visible. If someone were to go through the trouble of attacking a school, it would take 10 seconds of planning to realize you should probably take out the SRO first in a surprise attack so you can go on uninterrupted. With teachers carrying concealed, nobody knows who may suddenly act to defend their students and coworkers with a firearm if a threat is present.

As a howard county teacher, I see vulnerability after vulnerability in my school. I don't want to lay out a planbook for anyone that reads this that may wish to do harm, so I won't mention them...but in essentially every scenario, the presence of a voluntarily armed faculty can end a threat and reduce the damage an attacker can do. If I'm outside with two PE classes(60 kids) and a recess(another 130), any threat coming up to the property from any access point has about 200 defenseless people as a target. What are locks on doors, a phone call for police to come in 10 minutes, or a SRO inside the building going to do if someone decides to attack? In contrast, as someone who has grown up with guns, has training in defensive firearm use, and has a couple carry permits, I could just draw my own firearm and meet the threat with force...to either stop the threat, or make them turn their attention to me to buy time for the students to make their way to safety.

While I think the 2A explicity prevents the government from infringing on our natural rights to keep and bear arms in any way, as a realist I understand that our society may want armed teachers to be trained and certified before they may carry at work. Really the only thing that's different between the SRO's that carry their glocks on their hips in hoco schools and everyone else is that society believes those SRO's are trained. I'll gladly pay out of my own pocket to receive training and certification to prove competency if it means I'll have the tool to best defend my students against a violent attack. I'd expect the training to be specific to emergencies in the educational setting. I'd also expect that training to be useful for not only violent threats, but for any emergency. Teachers that go through such training would be an invaluable resource for their school's emergency preparedness committee.

There's really no better way to explain why teachers carrying is beneficial than a brief thought exercise based in reality. Dawn Hochsprung confronted the shooter at sandy hook when he first entered the building. She was the principal and she tried her best to stop him, but was shot and killed because she was unarmed. After the shooter killed her, he proceeded into the building to kill 20 children. Now go back in time and place a holstered gun on Principal Hochsprung's hip. She sees the shooter break into the front office with guns, intent on causing harm and draws her pistol. Do those 20 kids still die?

Everything you said.

 

[6pack]

I'll see if I can broach this with him and try to get a good feel on his actual stance. My neighborhood of 8 homes has very deep ties into just about every part of the local gov, mostly due to how many times we have beaten them on a variety of issues.

From what we have seen, the biggest problem facing Kittleman right now is that the entire county gov is basically non-functioning. No established advisors want to hitch their wagons to a potential one - and - done so he is surrounded by a bunch of 20-somethings who have little to no real world experience.

I think, despite him signing this, any support shown to him now can only help us for the rest of his term.

If in talking with him he would like to have MSI talk with him, just let us know.

 

[danb]

Putting SROs in schools costs a lot of money. Most of what they deal with is unruly kids. I think we have them in all the middle schools and high schools now. Not sure why we need them in elementary schools. I doubt one officer would stop a determined terrorist etc. It will be a cold day in hell before Maryland lets teachers be armed.

I am irritated about this bill. On the other hand, this is a tough argument to frame. I can hear the ads "Kittleman voted to let guns in county buildings!!" No matter what, this bill was going to be passed - if he vetoed it it would have been overridden 4-1, and he would not get any changes.

Carry is already generally prohibited in/on state buildings and grounds anyway. So the worst thing I can say is that this seems to bring HoCo in line with MD.

Overall I'd say this impacts exactly 0 people because we do not have shall issue CCW in this state anyway. I am not sure what the upside of a fight is or would be. As irritated as I am about this bill, I cannot honestly say I personally would pick a fight over it. Maybe better to move on and not waste time on in.

 

[pbharvey]

Overall I'd say this impacts exactly 0 people because we do not have shall issue CCW in this state anyway. I am not sure what the upside of a fight is or would be. As irritated as I am about this bill, I cannot honestly say I personally would pick a fight over it. Maybe better to move on and not waste time on in.

It affects many people including several on MDS.
The upside of the fight is to educate people that "gun free zone" signs do not deter gun carrying people with evil intent. The rhetoric that Kittleman is saying about "protecting the lives of county employees" or some such nonsense needs to be addressed. He's actually putting them in harm's way.

This event was part of my testimony before the county council:

 

[whistlersmother]

Putting SROs in schools costs a lot of money. Most of what they deal with is unruly kids. I think we have them in all the middle schools and high schools now. Not sure why we need them in elementary schools. I doubt one officer would stop a determined terrorist etc. It will be a cold day in hell before Maryland lets teachers be armed.

I am irritated about this bill. On the other hand, this is a tough argument to frame. I can hear the ads "Kittleman voted to let guns in county buildings!!" No matter what, this bill was going to be passed - if he vetoed it it would have been overridden 4-1, and he would not get any changes.

Carry is already generally prohibited in/on state buildings and grounds anyway. So the worst thing I can say is that this seems to bring HoCo in line with MD.

Overall I'd say this impacts exactly 0 people because we do not have shall issue CCW in this state anyway. I am not sure what the upside of a fight is or would be. As irritated as I am about this bill, I cannot honestly say I personally would pick a fight over it. Maybe better to move on and not waste time on in.

^This. This bill is some libtard in Columbia's doing. Probably an HOA nazi trying to expand into county government - just trying to feel less self-loathing.

 

[Z_Man]

Putting officers in schools costs a lot of money. Giving teachers a legal pathway to carry at work is free...hell, it can even generate revenue. A SRO at school can't be everywhere at once and is highly visible. If someone were to go through the trouble of attacking a school, it would take 10 seconds of planning to realize you should probably take out the SRO first in a surprise attack so you can go on uninterrupted. With teachers carrying concealed, nobody knows who may suddenly act to defend their students and coworkers with a firearm if a threat is present.

As a howard county teacher, I see vulnerability after vulnerability in my school. I don't want to lay out a planbook for anyone that reads this that may wish to do harm, so I won't mention them...but in essentially every scenario, the presence of a voluntarily armed faculty can end a threat and reduce the damage an attacker can do. If I'm outside with two PE classes(60 kids) and a recess(another 130), any threat coming up to the property from any access point has about 200 defenseless people as a target. What are locks on doors, a phone call for police to come in 10 minutes, or a SRO inside the building going to do if someone decides to attack? In contrast, as someone who has grown up with guns, has training in defensive firearm use, and has a couple carry permits, I could just draw my own firearm and meet the threat with force...to either stop the threat, or make them turn their attention to me to buy time for the students to make their way to safety.

While I think the 2A explicity prevents the government from infringing on our natural rights to keep and bear arms in any way, as a realist I understand that our society may want armed teachers to be trained and certified before they may carry at work. Really the only thing that's different between the SRO's that carry their glocks on their hips in hoco schools and everyone else is that society believes those SRO's are trained. I'll gladly pay out of my own pocket to receive training and certification to prove competency if it means I'll have the tool to best defend my students against a violent attack. I'd expect the training to be specific to emergencies in the educational setting. I'd also expect that training to be useful for not only violent threats, but for any emergency. Teachers that go through such training would be an invaluable resource for their school's emergency preparedness committee.

There's really no better way to explain why teachers carrying is beneficial than a brief thought exercise based in reality. Dawn Hochsprung confronted the shooter at sandy hook when he first entered the building. She was the principal and she tried her best to stop him, but was shot and killed because she was unarmed. After the shooter killed her, he proceeded into the building to kill 20 children. Now go back in time and place a holstered gun on Principal Hochsprung's hip. She sees the shooter break into the front office with guns, intent on causing harm and draws her pistol. Do those 20 kids still die?

I do not disagree with anything you have said.

I will say, of all the teachers I know in this state (none of them are older than 30) I don't believe a single one of them would stand up to an attacker and defend the children with or without a firearm.

Most people with the mentality to have a firearm and use it to defend themselves and others, do not become teachers in todays world.

 

[Stoveman]

Overall I'd say this impacts exactly 0 people because we do not have shall issue CCW in this state anyway. I am not sure what the upside of a fight is or would be. As irritated as I am about this bill, I cannot honestly say I personally would pick a fight over it. Maybe better to move on and not waste time on in.

If affects me, as I occasionally have to deal with the county for work. Looks like the safe in the truck is going to get more use.....

 

[pbharvey]

If affects me, as I occasionally have to deal with the county for work. Looks like the safe in the truck is going to get more use.....

It's not just the county building.
It's all the buildings owned by the county.
You'll have to disarm before using the bathroom at Centennial Park, or using the library, or community center, or maybe when visiting anyone who lives in one of the many owned county rentals. Speaking of which, are these residents now banned from having a gun in their home?
I think you can still use the landfill but when they ask to see your drivers license, don't stick your hand through the window of the scale house - make the lady there reach out and take it from you.

 

[danb]

It's not just the county building.
It's all the buildings owned by the county.
You'll have to disarm before using the bathroom at Centennial Park, or using the library, or community center, or maybe when visiting anyone who lives in one of the many owned county rentals. Speaking of which, are these residents now banned from having a gun in their home?
I think you can still use the landfill but when they ask to see your drivers license, don't stick your hand through the window of the scale house - make the lady there reach out and take it from you.

SAF has won a few cases where guns were banned on public housing.

 

[pbharvey]

SAF has won a few cases where guns were banned on public housing.

Howard county very well may have inadvertently banned them.
Maybe I should bring it up?

Does anyone know if the Howard county housing commission is a separate entity from the county itself?

 

[gamer_jim]

It's not just the county building.
It's all the buildings owned by the county.
You'll have to disarm before using the bathroom at Centennial Park, or using the library, or community center, or maybe when visiting anyone who lives in one of the many owned county rentals. Speaking of which, are these residents now banned from having a gun in their home?
I think you can still use the landfill but when they ask to see your drivers license, don't stick your hand through the window of the scale house - make the lady there reach out and take it from you.

I thought state had preemption in MD on where someone could carry with a permit.

The only thing they could do is ask you to leave and call it a trespassing charge when you don't. Or in the case of Baltimore County government, it's against your employment contract, but not illegal.

Or am I misunderstanding the issue?

 

[smokey]

I do not disagree with anything you have said.

I will say, of all the teachers I know in this state (none of them are older than 30) I don't believe a single one of them would stand up to an attacker and defend the children with or without a firearm.

Most people with the mentality to have a firearm and use it to defend themselves and others, do not become teachers in todays world.

I've seen teachers in my building place themselves into danger to protect kids quite a few times. In just about every school shooting, you'll see reports of teachers taking bullets while trying to protect the kids. Lots of us teacher types don't seem like much, and complain a lot, but most teachers take their responsibility to safeguard the students very seriously.

 

[danb]

Howard county very well may have inadvertently banned them.
Maybe I should bring it up?

Does anyone know if the Howard county housing commission is a separate entity from the county itself?

Looking at the text of the bill, it's only "a public building that is on county property." Residences are not "public" buildings.

Also, banned: dangerous weapons under 4-101. Leave the nunchuks and pepper mace in the trunk. I guess spring assisted knives are a-ok.

ETA: 8-400 of the county code defines

Gun: Any firearm, rifle, shotgun, revolver, pistol, air gun, air rifle or any similar mechanism by whatever name known which is designed to expel a projectile through a barrel by the action of any explosive, gas, compressed air, spring, or elastic.

So leave your nerf guns at home too!

 

[HarCo2ANewb]

Am I correct that the following is the penalty for the basis of this thread?

Sec. 8.405. - Penalty for violations of subtitle.
Any person who shall violate any of the provisions of this subtitle shall, upon conviction thereof, be punished by a fine not to exceed $1,000.00 or imprisonment not to exceed six months in jail, or both.