new rifle - ladder rounds

[Doco Overboard]

I've never had any issues with any of mine. They all run like a top. I have 5 .223s and 2 "other". I wonder if it is the ammo? I don't think there would be a problem with factory ammo but maybe some reloads could cause issues?

I think it’s the myriad of parts suppliers because theirs so many of them and maybe some assembly techniques that become troublesome.
I’m just going by what I read here on the forum.
It’s like each rifle needs to be fit unto itself.

 

[E.Shell]

There is a huge number of "imported" parts of greatly varying quality and precision. I think that many hobbyists and some manufacturers are using these parts and stacking tolerances.

Even something as simple as a fixed Picatinny gas block has pricing running from $29 (!) to $80 or more and I've gotta believe there are functional differences.

 

[Archeryrob]

I'm so far agreeing with Doco on this. Even though I got all my parts from PSA and the first 556 was a kit unto it self, I did occasionally have a cycle problem with it and its wide open gas block and cycling. Now with the 6.8 SPC it would cycle complete once in a while, but hardly ever. Even factory ammo I detail on the last page mostly failed to cycle. The problem got worse with the new upper and wondering if the lower is the problem.

I am going to have Pete look at it tonight. His initial thinking is buffer weight and spring could be a possibility, but he will look it over and maybe keep it for a bit.

I have always been a bolt or lever rifle guy and never even bought an AR until 2013 when they threatened to not let me buy one. Never played with it much I lost interest in it until I started reloading. Then I wanted one with a bigger, better, bullet. Now here I am thinking WTF if this so difficult.

 

[outrider58]

I've never had any issues with any of mine. They all run like a top. I have 5 .223s and 2 "other". I wonder if it is the ammo? I don't think there would be a problem with factory ammo but maybe some reloads could cause issues?

Factory ammo is not cycling either.

I think it’s the myriad of parts suppliers because theirs so many of them and maybe some assembly techniques that become troublesome.
I’m just going by what I read here on the forum.
It’s like each rifle needs to be fit unto itself.

In this case, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say the problem will lie mostly on workmanship and parts, being a PSA...

There is a huge number of "imported" parts of greatly varying quality and precision. I think that many hobbyists and some manufacturers are using these parts and stacking tolerances.

Even something as simple as a fixed Picatinny gas block has pricing running from $29 (!) to $80 or more and I've gotta believe there are functional differences.

Agreed. Another factor in tolerance stacking is workmanship. Attention to detail when building with marginal parts is extremely important. When I do a build, there are certain parts I will demand the buyer include. There are plenty of places where one can cut costs, the 'drive train' not being one of them.

 

[Doco Overboard]

I wonder at what point does deficiencies in materials and workmanship affect accuracy demands from an overarching perspective in a AR type rifle?
Particularly in ammo development.
For ammo or performance / accuracy testing, a rifle doesn't need to function but only really as a single shot.
But it’s actually more complicated than that.
One would think though that later on, the demands on the gas system would surely play a factor in what happens afterwards for repetitive consistency in performance.
I think a good example would be gas system components that leak, are misadjusted or fail to work as intended.
All those things and more impact the system as a whole as can be evidenced by other systems used in other gas operated service rifles like an M1A or even a Garand and others maybe including AR prime manufacturing entities like Colt with non select fire receivers.
The primary difference being the latter examples almost always have a higher quality of components usually from the onset and the era from which they were developed there weren’t a lot of substitute variables in the industry as a whole. Most of that sort of thing in the past was only manufactured by certain elements outside of barrels maybe. And quality controlled to higher degree.
These Ar’s certainly have a bunch of differing factions that need to be considered when putting them together not just because of all the questions posed for initial reliability but evidently because of parts that are able to be sourced seems to be almost unlimited to a particular degree.

 

[Archeryrob]

Took it to Pete and he tore it apart. Replaced the buffer weight and spring, but doubted it had a problem that he could tell. Replaced the ejector spring on BCG as it looked cheap. He checked the bolt face and barrel chamber and all looked good. I was oiling it like I would oil a bolt gun and just a whip. He said no, make it wet and hosed the bolt down. Seems I am still learning my ignorance of AR's.

The carrier key on the BCG failed measurement, but he did not think it would matter, or be more minor if it was. It took the red gauge when only the green should fit. It is still failing after the first walk through. 1st shot worked like a champ and locked back, 2nd eject weaker and no lock back, 3rd even weaker and no lock back. Sigh

It seems the gas block will get replaced next. Maybe I'll pay him to do both the gas block and carrier key because I'm tired of the failures and I'll probably be swearing off PSA after this crap fest. replacing brand new part on a new rifle. Not just adjusting them. Pete seems to know his stuff and is a damn nice guy.

 

[outrider58]

Took it to Pete and he tore it apart. Replaced the buffer weight and spring, but doubted it had a problem that he could tell. Replaced the ejector spring on BCG as it looked cheap. He checked the bolt face and barrel chamber and all looked good. I was oiling it like I would oil a bolt gun and just a whip. He said no, make it wet and hosed the bolt down. Seems I am still learning my ignorance of AR's.

The carrier key on the BCG failed measurement, but he did not think it would matter, or be more minor if it was. It took the red gauge when only the green should fit. It is still failing after the first walk through. 1st shot worked like a champ and locked back, 2nd eject weaker and no lock back, 3rd even weaker and no lock back. Sigh

It seems the gas block will get replaced next. Maybe I'll pay him to do both the gas block and carrier key because I'm tired of the failures and I'll probably be swearing off PSA after this crap fest. replacing brand new part on a new rifle. Not just adjusting them. Pete seems to know his stuff and is a damn nice guy.

We had the same teacher. Did he realign the gas block? Your gun has seen very little use yet. I recommend you load up a bunch of commercial bullets to spec and get more rounds through it to see if it seals up. You have little to lose, at this point. Buy a decent GB like a Superlative Arms Bleed-off and a new gas key and either Pete or I can put them on for you.

Superlative Arms .625

This is a Superlative Arms .625" Adjustable Bleed Off Gas Block with a Melonite Finish. Shop more Superlative Arms at ballisticadvantage.com.

www.ballisticadvantage.com

BCM® Gas Key with Fasteners

BCM Gas key is manufactured, chrome lined, and heat treated per USGI specifications. Includes 2 USGI grade 8 fasteners.

bravocompanyusa.com

Remember these words: Friends do not let friends buy PSA

 

[Archeryrob]

I am not ordering but paying him for what he has already. He could open an AR parts store in the gun room of his. He scoped it and said it was aligned, but he said to bring it back and change it. My higher grain weight powder charge loaded cast bullets shot just as good as the factory ammo.

Yeah, learning the hard way. Got one that worked, daughter bought one that worked and now I got one with no gassing system.

 

[outrider58]

I am not ordering but paying him for what he has already. He could open an AR parts store in the gun room of his. He scoped it and said it was aligned, but he said to bring it back and change it. My higher grain weight powder charge loaded cast bullets shot just as good as the factory ammo.

Yeah, learning the hard way. Got one that worked, daughter bought one that worked and now I got one with no gassing system.

The reason I recommended factory bullets was to save you from using up your custom made bullets for breaking in your gun. Whatever is best for you is fine with me...

 

[outrider58]

Seems to be a problem with a lot of these AR type rifles.
Everyone of them is different and they seem to often have problems.

You have to consider, with a commercially built ARs, the building company has the advantage of R&D/testing before a product is introduced to the public. True, some companies are better at this than others, but for the most part, that is how it works.

Enter the home builder(where I am counted as one). It takes schooling and experience to become an adequate builder. Nothing replaces that. Unfortunately, your average beginner is flying blind, pretty much. Though there is a crap-ton of info via books and videos, they still aren't capable of covering every nuance of every build/combination of parts and how they relate to each other. Every time you add a new caliber or set-up to your repertoire, you open yourself to previously un-encounterd problems. That's just the nature of the beast. A learning curve. ARs have a lot of moving parts. A lot of places where things can go wrong.

I have a list of known parts that I include into all my guns, even economy builds. They are the foundation of all my builds. They aren't necessarily more expensive than others, but experience has proven them reliable through the years.
Still, there will be hiccups, but that's all part of custom work, something I'm used to.

 

[gungate]

Maybe convert this one to piston operated?

 

[outrider58]

Maybe convert this one to piston operated?

Once we overcome the build errors, this should be a fine shooting gun. I'm not a huge fan of piston conversions.

 

[Archeryrob]

Last night we replaced the gas block and nope. Still first shot works and 2 and 3 fail. SO later tonight we might try chnaging the Carriage key and possibly bolt.

PSA finally answered me after two days. I expect to have to fixed and be $100 or more in the hole. Next time I won't pizz on them if they are on fire.

 

[Archeryrob]

Last night we replaced my bolt carrier and Carriage key and reused my existing bolt. All he has is 556 and this bolt was for 6.8 spc. He took my bolt apart and the heavy oil he did to the bolt got under the carriage key and where the gas feed into the bolt carrier you could see where the oil was blown out from all around the hole in the carriage key to the bolt carrier. So it was leaking gas there.

Now the BCG is cycling back and locking back with the last of the factory ammo I had.

So I tested the lower rounds from my ladder setup and up to 19.25 grains of 4227 is not cycling it. Now I have to reload 2 of each until I get to grain weight that cycles it.

 

[Archeryrob]

I had someone recommend using 4227 for smaller cartridge reloading. Well it seems to be most of my problems and not gassing the gun enough to work. I tried today just on making the gun cycle and no dice. If it ejected it just limped out and wouldn't chamber another round or lock back. Just in case anyone asks, my Lyman manual doesn't even have 6.8 in it.

Found some info of people using H335 with larger bullets. Went to RSP and they were closed. Stopped at Hafers in WVa and they didn't have what I wanted and $50+ for pound of powder. I'd wait for RSP to open back up.

Came home and have 3031 and 4198 for 30-30 and 30-06. I impulse bought 3031 during the supply chain problems and have 2+ pounds of it. I thought, what do I have to loose. Checked GRT and 26 grains is Pmax -10% or so and 2270 fps and I built one round. It went off and gun cycles like it is supposed too and round kicked out behind me at 4 o clock. GRT says I could try a higher load, but powder getting up to close to being able to be compressed. I highly doubt I could add more powder without compressing it.

I'll probably do one round of each of the new ladder with 3031 and load a mag high to low and cycle through until they all fire or it doesn't cycle to know which ones to ladder. I never built a round for a semi auto and this is a new thing. Bolt or lever guns work even with weak loads.

 

[Archeryrob]

Loaded one round with 24.24 grains / 2102 fps through 26 grains / 2270 and stacked lowest on the bottom of the magazine and shooting fastest first. Every round ejected properly and lightest on the bottom locked back. This powder cycles and I can load the ladder now.

 

[outrider58]

Congrats!

Thank you Pete!

 

[3paul10]

Thanks fellas.

 

[Archeryrob]

Ran the ladder yesterday. Lower charges did not group as well as the highest charges. 25.75 and 26 grains of 3031 worked best. They seemed to tighten more vertically but I was getting right drift on the grouping. Using a cheaper lead sled on a fold up plastic table. Plus the AR handle grip hits one of the knobs and doesn't rest in it well. I just wonder how much of the right drift could be from me and the not fitting in the sled good.

I did not bring the factory loads with me. I considered buying bullets, but would rather use cast. Maybe test 26 grains with a different rest. shoot some factory ammo as a gauge. Maybe try some jackets bullets, but GRT is warning me on a poor burn with 3031 and lighter bullets around 110 grains.

Not thrilled and not sure where to go with this one at the moment.

 

[3paul10]

Im just glad shes running