Philly police and Open Carry

[Rattlesnake46319]

So, what you(he) are saying is that you would open carry to try and "normalize" guns at the risk of your own and other's safety. Gotcha
So if we are getting down to semantics and digging deep now.......... I assume you practice your retentions skills daily, as often as you practice firing and scenarios, right?

No, which is one reason I don't OC.

Your move.

 

[Blaster229]

Belt ID holder,lanyard etc. If the gun is in the open why not the permit?

Because there is no valid reason to do it? A cop cannot get verifiable info from it from a distance other than holding it in his hand and reading it.

 

[Blaster229]

I do love the spirited posting here. It is a shame that everyone's enthusiasm and efforts go at less than a snail's pace in trying to turn things around when it comes to carrying.

 

[mrjam2jab]

Again, what is a good, tactical reason for a civilian to carry a weapon out in the open? Why be at a disadvantage or make yourself a target?

Why does there have to be a "tactical" reason. How about practical? My dress for work is a tucked in polo shirt. After work, I slip the IWB holster on and go about my business. I'm not going to un-tuck my shirt just to conceal...looks too messy.

 

[montoya32]

BECAUSE THE LAW TELLS THEM TO DO IT. COPS do not make law, they just try to follow the rules like anyone else at a job. Do you follow the rules at your job? They only articulation they need is that they saw the person carrying a weapon out in the open. Sorry, no suspicion in this case because they see it.

That would not be a terry stop. A terry frisk is when the officer pats a suspect down through their outer clothing to look for a weapon.
Cops don't make laws, they just try to enforce them. Don't shoot the messengers. Geezus

No one is blaming the officer following the directives given to him/her. It's just a huge stinking, steaming baby diaper that your personal activities can be delayed because your are excercising a right given to you.

You made mention about "traffic jams" from stopping every motorist to verify licenses, well this would slow someone heading to work or an appointment just as much. If this is just a visual verification that someone posseses a permit, which would be rather simple and speedy, then it wouldn't interfere too much, but if it involves running the permit to verify in the database that it hasn't been revoked, suspended or expired, then it could be something that would greatly interfere with your life.

Think about it, if you were in a busy shopping area or entertainment area, how many times a day would you expect to be stopped?

 

[Blaster229]

Why does there have to be a "tactical" reason. How about practical? My dress for work is a tucked in polo shirt. After work, I slip the IWB holster on and go about my business. I'm not going to un-tuck my shirt just to conceal...looks too messy.

Well, wearing a gun isn't a fashion statement. It isn't comfortable regardless how you wear it and it isn't a piece of jewelry. It is a heavy, hip killing accoutrement that requires complete attention to it at all times. Now with all that going on, why do you want to be the first one to be the target of an assault? Going about your business is being 100 percent conscious about what you are carrying. So why not cover it up with something and you might not have to practice all of your gun retentions skills everyday to keep sharp

 

[Blaster229]

No one is blaming the officer following the directives given to him/her. It's just a huge stinking, steaming baby diaper that your personal activities can be delayed because your are excercising a right given to you.

You made mention about "traffic jams" from stopping every motorist to verify licenses, well this would slow someone heading to work or an appointment just as much. If this is just a visual verification that someone posseses a permit, which would be rather simple and speedy, then it wouldn't interfere too much, but if it involves running the permit to verify in the database that it hasn't been revoked, suspended or expired, then it could be something that would greatly interfere with your life.

Think about it, if you were in a busy shopping area or entertainment area, how many times a day would you expect to be stopped?

Exactly, so why not just cover it up and go about your business? How much more of your "right to carry" do you want to exercise?? There isn't much more right than being able to carry.

 

[Inigoes]

But my biggest question............. If all these people carrying OC are within their right (ccw holders), why are they carrying that way? Because anyone worth their salt carries concealed. There is no good tactical (read; self defense) reason to carry exposed. This is a shooting and self defense forum so the excuse " just because they want to carry that way" isn't going to fly.

If that's the case, then there would be no valid reason to carry handguns at all.

Each person has their own reason, for which they prefer. From the Novice to the expert, to each their own for preference.

I OC when hunting, why because bulky winter clothes get in the way, when the big buck somes up the draw. This includes tranisting to and from the hunting areas, stoppping for gas, etc...

Am I looking to get into a firefight, NO!

Different environments, require different methods.

 

[Blaster229]

If that's the case, then there would be no valid reason to carry handguns at all.

Each person has their own reason, for which they prefer. From the Novice to the expert, to each their own for preference.

I OC when hunting, why because bulky winter clothes get in the way, when the big buck somes up the draw. This includes tranisting to and from the hunting areas, stoppping for gas, etc...

Am I looking to get into a firefight, NO!

Different environments, require different methods.

I agree to what you are saying, especially in rural, country areas where it is "safer" to oc, but we are talking Philly. In a busy city. Granted this isn't nary a problem when it is cold. But why not give yourself a little advantage and have it covered to help keep prying hands off when you aren't paying attention?

 

[montoya32]

Exactly, so why not just cover it up and go about your business? How much more of your "right to carry" do you want to exercise?? There isn't much more right than being able to carry.

I would think because having your weapon covered makes it a little more difficult to draw as compared to having it on your hip and open. Besides, they allow this option, so second guessing as to why someone would or wouldn't OC isn't really the gist of the opposition being discussed here.

Also, I don't buy into the whole "if you OC you will be tareted" theory. Here in MD we don't have either option CC/OC, so we will never know.

 

[Blaster229]

Here in MD we don't have either option CC/OC, so we will never know.

Yeah. Sorry that you can't. I've been on both sides and understand the frustration.

 

[Inigoes]

In a busy city. Granted this isn't nary a problem when it is cold. But why not give yourself a little advantage and have it covered to help keep prying hands off when you aren't paying attention?

Using your logic of CC being better then OC tactically.

Why is a typical LEO uniform oriented to OC?

 

[RobMoore]

Easy of draw and projection of force, I would assume. That and, with the exception of winter months, we have no need to conceal. The uniform gives away who we are.

 

[Blaster229]

Using your logic of CC being better then OC tactically.

Why is a typical LEO uniform oriented to OC?

The uniform has to do with command presence, you want the attention for the deterrence. I don't wear one now. Certain jobs and positions you don't want to bring attention to yourself by slingin a pistola out and about. obviously

Quite frankly, I would feel uncomfortable and " vulnerable " carrying OC

 

[alucard0822]

Again, what is a good, tactical reason for a civilian to carry a weapon out in the open? Why be at a disadvantage or make yourself a target?

Before I moved here, I would only conceal carry, and still do in most populated areas, the "element of surprise" being my primary reason. While I do understand that a hell bent attacker will attack weither they see a gun or not, and may be much more violent in their attack when they know they are going up aggainst an obviously armed "victim", I think those cases are rare, as there are few that have happened to citizens that are not police, security, or military personnel. Criminals tend to operate under self preservation, and the mantra of not getting caught primarily, and almost none will plan on going up aggainst an armed target when there is much easier prey around. Without facing arrest by an officer, or a lot of cash as the goal, they avoid armed confrontation without much if any known benefit. It goes without saying that any proficient gun owner looking to OC should have the situational awareness, hand to hand retension techniques, a proper retension holster, and possibly some form of backup weapon to prevent most any situation where someone may try to disarm you.

I may be chicken, but I also don't want the added attention of police or people that irrationally fear guns by open carrying especially when I am out with the wife just doing mundane day to day tasks. I do recognize the element of surprise as a tactical advantage, and do agree that concealed carry is the better tactic in most situations. However, I have encountered a few practical reasons to OC, and often do. The biggest reason is physical activity, concealing IWB is uncomfortable, a cover garment is impractical, and effective concealment almost impossible while I cut the grass, help clean trash from the street and sidewalk, when I jog with the dog, split wood, or do most anything else on my property, or in my neighborhood. I don't OC as a political statement, or "because I can", most of my boots on the ground contributions to the 2nd ammendment are either in MD, or in secure areas in York or Harrisburg, basically can't OC or CC to a hearing in the capitol building.

Even though we live in a decent neighborhood, these activities often expose me to a lot of people and potential threats walking around, having my pistol readily accesible without the extra heat and bulk of a cover garment is ideal in the summer heat. Open carry holsters also tend to have better retension, thumb snaps, and level II and III retension systems found on OWB duty holsters greatly surpass the open top holsters I use for concealed carry, when hiking, fishing, or generally doing something outdoors where I can fall, trip, or am running around, this gives an extra margin of safety in that the pistol will stay put. These larger and thicker holsters also protect the gun better, and keep most all sweat off of it. I can also carry a larger weapon when wildlife is a concern, hiking in and around the woods, I like to carry a full size big bore revolver or auto, if the black bears, or feral dogs around here corner me, I would much rather have 45 super, 10mm or 44mag heavy loads in my large handguns than the 45ACP and 9mm in the short barreled CCW pistols I have, again tough to impossible to conceal. Then there are times where I leave the house concealing my weapon OWB under a jacket or long shirt, and either it gets to be hot out, and it is very uncomfortable, or in one case got a soda dumped on me by accident, and It had to go. Trips to the range where I intend to practice shooting from an OC holster rig, and open carry in the car to the range, the gas station and deli on the way back. Just a few of the instances where the convienience, comfort, lage weapons and secure retension of open carry have surpassed the need to conceal.

 

[swinokur]

When lawmakers write a carry law, I'm guessing tactical considerations are not part of the process.

There are as many opinions on this as there are different firearms. No one law is going to satisfy everyone,

The argument over which is better goes on ad infinitum. Since I am not aware of any empirical way to prove any of this, having the law not be specific is better IMO.

 

[WSM]

At least it's a clear policy. I don't see much ambiguity in that one.

The current policy is to HARASS THE HELL OUT OF EVERYONE. This at least brings open carry to the attention of officers, many of which do not know about open carry. Preemption may exist on the open carry issue but I could be wrong.

 

[WSM]

What is wrong with being able to check to see if someonne is legal or not to carry openly within their city limits?? Anyone worth their CCW permit won't carry openly anyway. So might as well be able to check those who aren't legal to carry that way? People say that cops are always reactive and not proactive. This allows Officers more contact with the public in an official capacity to run for warrants.

Due to some waist size/pant line inequalities I'll be carrying OWB with a shirt pulled over. I don't care about printing or my gun peeking out when I bend over.

 

[Inigoes]

you want the attention for the deterrence.

You answered you're own question.

Let's move on from this subject...

 

[gamer_jim]

This brings up a good point on when to CC or OC.

For me, hiking, camping, or at a friend's house where I know they are OC friendly I'll be OC'ing. All other times CC.

Everybody (who can legally posses) should have the RIGHT to OC if they want. I understand an officer asking to see ID, but the officer shouldn't have the right to detain or take the firearm as long as it's holstered and if no other probable cause. I don't think it's always prudent to OC but everyone should have the right to if they want to.

Also, I feel there should be strong alcohol laws pertaining to persons carrying, either OC or CC. And by strong I mean no tolerance policy (should apply to off duty LEO's as well).