Philly police and Open Carry

[Blaster229]

You answered you're own question.

Let's move on from this subject...

A citizen carrying OC does not deter someone from committing a crime like shoplifting, domestic arguments, fights, etc... that a police officer in uniform is meant to do when out in the public. A citizen carry is only helpful in a deadly force situation. Having a one up on the bad guy is important in the scenario. And if you decide not to shoot and be a good witness in the scenario and you have others around you who see your pistol and start pleading for you to " do something" because they see your OC?

Now, let's move on from this subject...

 

[Inigoes]

This brings up a good point on when to CC or OC.

For me, hiking, camping, or at a friend's house where I know they are OC friendly I'll be OC'ing. All other times CC.

Everybody (who can legally posses) should have the RIGHT to OC if they want. I understand an officer asking to see ID, but the officer shouldn't have the right to detain or take the firearm as long as it's holstered and if no other probable cause. I don't think it's always prudent to OC but everyone should have the right to if they want to.

Also, I feel there should be strong alcohol laws pertaining to persons carrying, either OC or CC. And by strong I mean no tolerance policy (should apply to off duty LEO's as well).

I'm a firm believer in one set of rules for all to follow, not the caste system MD or Philadephia has setup.

With having only one rule set, it makes understanding/complying the law that much easier.

 

[WSM]

This brings up a good point on when to CC or OC.

For me, hiking, camping, or at a friend's house where I know they are OC friendly I'll be OC'ing. All other times CC.

Everybody (who can legally posses) should have the RIGHT to OC if they want. I understand an officer asking to see ID, but the officer shouldn't have the right to detain or take the firearm as long as it's holstered and if no other probable cause. I don't think it's always prudent to OC but everyone should have the right to if they want to.

Also, I feel there should be strong alcohol laws pertaining to persons carrying, either OC or CC. And by strong I mean no tolerance policy (should apply to off duty LEO's as well).

Here is the thing. If you're not legally carrying are you going to provide a false document and hope that it passes muster? I think not. As soon as the cop engages there is either going to be A. a gun battle or B. foot chase. I won't debate the stop but I will debate disarming the civilian. It provides no extra safety to the officer or the public. Like it was said, many officers are not "gun guys" and have no idea how to operate any weapon other than their duty weapon, this creates an unsafe situation. Like Alucard said, there is a long standing history of Philly ignoring state law and implementing policy to harass, discriminate and deter CCW and OC in city limits. Ask around the city, you'll hardly find any love for the PPD, they have alienated themselves from the population that they serve. If anything will change, it needs to start in the PPD's refusal to enforce illegal policy/laws which are thrust at them by crooked politicians. I can't fault somebody for "falling in line" because they don't want to lose their job and have a family to feed but I don't have to like it, tolerate it or keep my mouth shut about it.

 

[WSM]

A citizen carrying OC does not deter someone from committing a crime like shoplifting, domestic arguments, fights, etc... that a police officer in uniform is meant to do when out in the public. A citizen carry is only helpful in a deadly force situation. Having a one up on the bad guy is important in the scenario. And if you decide not to shoot and be a good witness in the scenario and you have others around you who see your pistol and start pleading for you to " do something" because they see your OC?

Now, let's move on from this subject...

I mostly agree with the above statement. Your domestic dispute, gas station robbery, crack dealer on the corner, drunk bum pinching butts as they go by; none of those are my problem and I feel no need to interfere. In most cases you'll never see a CC'ers gun until there is a "loss of life" issue at hand. We don't CC/OC so that we can be auxiliary police, we do it to prevent a loss of life, whether it is our own or somebody else.

 

[Biggfoot44]

At any one moment for any one person it is virtually always better ( ie more tactical) to be concealed. On occasions where where OC was required of me I was able to do so in manner that 99+% never noticed I was armed, and w/o incident. In similar situation I would do so w/o hesitation.

Properly done both by individuals, and well regulated groups, OC has in fact made great advances in public opinion and official policies in regards to both open and concealed carry, and firearm ownership generally, most natably in VA and OH.

Amongst many who OC there is a knowing aspect of contributing to better more free future , even if it draews raised eyebrows at present. To put into mainstream reference, speaking out about why MD still had explicetly segregated schools more than 10 yr after Supreme Court prohibited would at that moment raise the ire of the local racists, but would hasten greater overall freedom.

 

[shawn]

But my biggest question............. If all these people carrying OC are within their right (ccw holders), why are they carrying that way? Because anyone worth their salt carries concealed. There is no good tactical (read; self defense) reason to carry exposed. This is a shooting and self defense forum so the excuse " just because they want to carry that way" isn't going to fly.

Carrying exposed is not a deterrent to a criminal who doesn't care.

And here we go.

I have said it a few times before but I think it is worth repeating.

There is NO point in arguing OC vs CC.

I also belong to the PA firearms owners association forum. (forum.pafoa.org)

They have debated it so much and it just makes people fight.

If you want to debate CC vs OC then go there. They have a whole forum just for that.

I know that it is a new idea to us Marylanders but trust me it has all aready been argued.

Please dont let us go down that road. It will just slpit the forum into two factions. Pro OC and Anti OC

 

[swinokur]

The 2A makes no distinction on carry. It's a personal thing and highly dependent on where you are located.If you can carry, do it.

I don't believe there is any empirical data on which is better. If someone has some, please provide a link or a cite. Otherwise it's pretty much a waste of bandwidth.

And I don't think racking a shotgun scares away bad guys either.

The stuff you learn on the Internet.

 

[Threeband]

The last two posts are the voices of sanity.

OC/CC has been argued into the ground. Here is an endlessly fascinating place to read about and discuss it in the real world, rather than abstract theory:

http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/


Otherwise, can anyone tell me whether or not my 9mm is adequate? I heard there's something called .45??? Does anyone know anything about that?

 

[tdt91]

Seems reasonable. You need a permit to OC in Philly. How else is an officer to know if you possess a valid license?

Of course, I'd like it if the directive stated that the OCer is innocent until proven guilty and as such will not have his/her property confiscated until a valid license cannot be produced, but hey, it's a step forward from where they were prior to that memo.

Its ********. You need a drivers license to drive a vehicle. Do we get stopped by every officer that see'e us to make sure we have a vailid license? A vehicle is just as deadly or deadlier than a gun so they can't make that argument either.
This is just a plain simple way to harrass those that would dare carry in Philly.
Just a bunch more Libtards/communists.

 

[tdt91]

What is wrong with being able to check to see if someonne is legal or not to carry openly within their city limits?? Anyone worth their CCW permit won't carry openly anyway. So might as well be able to check those who aren't legal to carry that way? People say that cops are always reactive and not proactive. This allows Officers more contact with the public in an official capacity to run for warrants.

think about it. If you were a criminal looking to commit a crime with a gun would you be carrying open in a holster?

 

[tdt91]

This gives a cop the legal right to make contact. A stop in an official capacity, the subject has to provide identification. " I see you displaying a weapon, I am officially interviewing you, I get your ID " period.


That is wisconsin. I am at work and have not read the whole story. But let's arm chair what I think you are saying and it will clear up what I am saying.

We are in philly. I am a cop. You and a friend are eating a cheesteak at Pat's. You have open carry, your friend doesn't. I approach you and ask you for id to see if you are legal to carry with your CCW. Your friend isn't carrying openly so I do not need to see their id to see if they are in violation because i have no reasonable suspicion or probable cause.

I assume the wisconsin case is saying the cops asked the others for their ID's? Probably no reason to. No need to in the situation I posted at Pat's.

It seems to me that you are a city or county cop that would be affaid to have the public carry, open or not. You people just don't understand. The guy that is open carring is not going to be a problem.

 

[tdt91]

BECAUSE THE LAW TELLS THEM TO DO IT. COPS do not make law, they just try to follow the rules like anyone else at a job. Do you follow the rules at your job? They only articulation they need is that they saw the person carrying a weapon out in the open. Sorry, no suspicion in this case because they see it.

That would not be a terry stop. A terry frisk is when the officer pats a suspect down through their outer clothing to look for a weapon.
Cops don't make laws, they just try to enforce them. Don't shoot the messengers. Geezus

just because a government makes a law don't make it legal. You officers swore to uphold the constitution, not follow any bullcrap unlawful order.

 

[tdt91]

But my biggest question............. If all these people carrying OC are within their right (ccw holders), why are they carrying that way? Because anyone worth their salt carries concealed. There is no good tactical (read; self defense) reason to carry exposed. This is a shooting and self defense forum so the excuse " just because they want to carry that way" isn't going to fly.

Carrying exposed is not a deterrent to a criminal who doesn't care.

then why do police open carry

 

[mythaeus]

The OC/CC debate is beaten to death, but I wanted point out a legal perspective that has not been mentioned in this thread: that without making OC illegal, the cop cannot arrest you for accidentally exposing your gun. If you fail to adequately conceal your gun, cops in TX and FL, etc. CAN get you for it if they want to give you a hard time.

As a Philadelphian and an OC supporter (as in, I don't care how you carry your gun), this is a much welcomed first step, vs. what was established by the higher up before this directive came out.

Still, while I personally don't OC, I find nothing pragmatically "reasonable" about what the directive tells the officers to do because:

1. Criminals DO NOT OC

2. Guns are safest when they are IN the holster and NOT handled. There are hundreds of CCW varieties out there, no cop will ever know how to handle each one. I don't want to be shot dead by his partner if he negligently discharge my pistol when trying to unload it. I also DO NOT want to handle my gun around a cop who's stopping me. I can see hundreds of ways how my being shot dead by a cop with my gun out of my holster and in my hand can be played up in a police report.

Al

 

[04RWon]

Without reading every page I leave it at this...atleast you can carry in some way shape or form...ALOT more than can be said for MD...

 

[Nobody]

I am a big fan of OC and would prefer we had it here, and everywhere for that matter. For those who do not think it deters think of this, a "club" on a steering wheel will in MOST likleyhood cause a theif to go to the next car as it is an easier target. I said MOST likley as he may still want that particular car enough for the work involved.

An OC'd firearm is much like the club as the criminal will in MOST likleyhood move on to the next victim as an easier target. There may be the rare exception but as a rule..he will move on down the line.

When was the last time you heard of a unifromed police office robbed at gunpoint?

1, deterant, as explained above.
2, ease of access.
3, great coversation peice.
4, I am fat and do not like the heat so no extra clothing involved.

My 2 cents
NOBODY

 

[04RWon]

I am a big fan of OC and would prefer we had it here, and everywhere for that matter. For those who do not think it deters think of this, a "club" on a steering wheel will in MOST likleyhood cause a theif to go to the next car as it is an easier target. I said MOST likley as he may still want that particular car enough for the work involved.

An OC'd firearm is much like the club as the criminal will in MOST likleyhood move on to the next victim as an easier target. There may be the rare exception but as a rule..he will move on down the line.

When was the last time you heard of a unifromed police office robbed at gunpoint?

1, deterant, as explained above.
2, ease of access.
3, great coversation peice.
4, I am fat and do not like the heat so no extra clothing involved.

My 2 cents
NOBODY

ROFL at reason 4.

While I would like it, I can see it causing an uproar. The soccer moms here in Columbia would have a shitfit. I see it as a deterant but I do however see some criminals thinking of it as, oh this guy thinks he's hot shit, BAM from behind. That may be farfetched but I see CC as a better option, even if it isnt competely hidden. If you can see its shape under a shirt, whatever, atleast you only see it if your looking for it.

 

[Nobody]

ROFL at reason 4.

While I would like it, I can see it causing an uproar. The soccer moms here in Columbia would have a shitfit. I see it as a deterant but I do however see some criminals thinking of it as, oh this guy thinks he's hot shit, BAM from behind. That may be farfetched but I see CC as a better option, even if it isnt competely hidden. If you can see its shape under a shirt, whatever, atleast you only see it if your looking for it.

I do not care about soccer moms and the more it happened the less common shitfits would become.

As far as the pre emptive strike by a criminal, if you can show me one incident of it happening I will buy you a beer. Criminals want no resistance and the likley hood of you meeting someone hell bent on pure unadulterated murder are slim to none. Most are out for money not blood and therefor would not want to escalate the situation into murder. Again there is the exception but I live by the rule.

NOBODY..

PS please do not laugh at my fattness, that is a true reason. I wear but a mear t-shirt as my casuel attire year round and only on special occasion wear a long sleeve shirt let alone a jacket.

 

[Biggfoot44]

Actually back when there was still huntable fields along Rt 210, TWO dove hunters (at same time) were robbed of their shotguns at gunpoint.

At risk of seeming schitzo on the topic I feel that OC should be legal and hassle free. I've done it before, and if need be will do so again. But Advantage ? Nah . Done properly, the negatives can be minimized. In the right context can have public relations and/ or political speech usefulness. But from purely tactical viewpoint concealed is advantagous.

Uniformed LE is so rarely unprovokedly attacked because the BGs fear the high likelyhood of their brother ofcs hunt them down, and then enthuiastically arrest them, if not shoot them for resisting. Not just because they have an open firearm

FWIW : A Club will deter common joyriders, and amatauer thieves . A professional targeting a high demand vehicle wouldn't even be slowed down.

 

[Eudaimonia]

Do you play poker with your hand showing?