Question on NFA item storage
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That’s what I’m thinking. He doesn’t have my combination for that reason
- Jul 29, 2014
- 50,085
My wife and daughter have access to my safe and NFA as they are trustees to my NFA trust.
He’d then have access to machine guns and suppressors. He’s a solid, trustworthy kid.
I may just do that.
They are on a couple of things of mine, but not everything.
I believe there is for class 3 stuff.
I don’t believe anyone but the registered owner(s) can have access. I suppose I could put his rifle on the trust. I didn’t want to do that, because he’s an adult and will fly the nest someday.
- Jul 29, 2014
- 50,085
I can limit, physically, access to any of my firearms to anyone, including trustees. That would be of my own doing. If I die, and there are no other restrictions placed by me into the trust, my trustees have carte blanch. That is my understanding of MY trust, as it exists today.
Trutees, as stated in a given trust, are the ONLY ones who may be in possession of NFA items within that trust, without my being present.
There in lies the rub. His son is not a trustee, therefore cant have access to George's Class 3 items. George is not going to be a trustee on his son's class 3, so he can't have access to the boys items.
The difference being the trust. Trustees can have access.
If it owned by an individual, only the named person can have access, unless said person is there. That is my understanding.
I would not overthink this and buy another safe just for that NFA item.
When there is no short upper on it, a registered lower is not an SBR. BATFE says you don't need to file a Form 20 if you don't take a short upper with you. I would think the lower alone or if it had a rifle length upper on it, you'd be able to store it in your safe.
But it's also easy enough for him to lock the lower in a cheap plastic case and have you store that in your safe.
I wonder if a trigger lock would suffice to deny access.
But it's also easy enough for him to lock the lower in a cheap plastic case and have you store that in your safe.
I wonder if a trigger lock would suffice to deny access.
Ok. We’ll just throw an HBAR upper on it and call it a day.
I searched through the ATF NFA handbook and couldn’t find any applicable law. I also searched the internet and found nothing. Follow your gut.
The reason I want to do this
huh. May be more mythological BGS stuff. I did search before posting the question so nobody could give me crap about it being in neon lights. I’m more interested in the formal answer, as it piqued my curiosity.
*****I am by no means an expert, but this question has come up in several of my firearms classes before from members who have Class 3 items, children, spouses, or others living in the home, etc.. The gentlemen who sometimes helps me teach the course is an attorney with Class 3 items himself, also has an FFL, and at least used to set up these types of trusts. He has always answered the question pretty much with the same info as is above in the quoted post.
When in doubt, it might be worth it to consult an attorney with expertise in this matter as the consequences in our state if the letter of the law is not followed can be quite severe with respect to Class 3 items. Trustees can have access, others not unless the trustee is there - that is my understanding.
Honestly, this shit kind of pisses me off as "Shall not be infringed" is kind of clanging in my head right now. As legal gun owners we have to jump through an ass ton of hoops whereas criminals just don't give a shit, do whatever they want, and often seem to not really be all that punished when they do get caught.
alucard0822
For great Justice
There are a lot of details, and a LOT of opinion and "best practices" that are presented as law. There are no specific storage requirements. The risk is running afoul of "possession" or negligence aka a person that is not in a trust or any other person with an individual registered NFA device while the owner/trustee is not present is unlawful.
The detail that matters is that if you are not present, it can be construed that a person has possession if their access is not reasonably limited. US v. Turnbough being the case I have in my notes, although that was an unlawful firearm that 3 people were charged with possession, and there are basically 0 NFA specific cases or statutes I can find outside of criminals or child access cases. So while there is no requirement per-se, it is possible that unsupervised access could=posession, and could be considered negligent for the owner/trustee. Still it's a stretch, and more than likely if the ATF is raiding your house and searching for NFA violations you already made a lot of mistakes, and a flimsy storage/ possession charge is probably the least of your worries. IMO, legally without a specific storage requirement, you could leave an NFA item hanging on the wall in your room, and in the exceedingly rare event that was found out without an unauthorized person taking your NFA device to the range by themselves or something, it would be a hard charge to make stick. For responsible folk though storing it in a safe is just a good practice, and being a trigger lock satisfies the "child access" law, would be easy to argue that satisfies NFA access / possession too, so could store it with a trigger lock in your safe even if it isn't a requirement. Placing a non-regulated upper also makes it a non-NFA device temporarily, so that could also work with the NFA upper stored separately.
Guntrust lawyer NFA storage requirement
there is also an ATF "best practices" FAQ, no law referenced, and it is for storage when moving to a state the item cannot be posesses by state law, not living at the place where the item is stored. I think this is what inspired most shops and people to claim an NFA item has to be locked in a safe where only the owner/trustees have the combo. Still, it's a best practice or at most an ATF opinion without a specific law in reference, and it's in a specific circumstance that may not apply.
The detail that matters is that if you are not present, it can be construed that a person has possession if their access is not reasonably limited. US v. Turnbough being the case I have in my notes, although that was an unlawful firearm that 3 people were charged with possession, and there are basically 0 NFA specific cases or statutes I can find outside of criminals or child access cases. So while there is no requirement per-se, it is possible that unsupervised access could=posession, and could be considered negligent for the owner/trustee. Still it's a stretch, and more than likely if the ATF is raiding your house and searching for NFA violations you already made a lot of mistakes, and a flimsy storage/ possession charge is probably the least of your worries. IMO, legally without a specific storage requirement, you could leave an NFA item hanging on the wall in your room, and in the exceedingly rare event that was found out without an unauthorized person taking your NFA device to the range by themselves or something, it would be a hard charge to make stick. For responsible folk though storing it in a safe is just a good practice, and being a trigger lock satisfies the "child access" law, would be easy to argue that satisfies NFA access / possession too, so could store it with a trigger lock in your safe even if it isn't a requirement. Placing a non-regulated upper also makes it a non-NFA device temporarily, so that could also work with the NFA upper stored separately.
Guntrust lawyer NFA storage requirement
there is also an ATF "best practices" FAQ, no law referenced, and it is for storage when moving to a state the item cannot be posesses by state law, not living at the place where the item is stored. I think this is what inspired most shops and people to claim an NFA item has to be locked in a safe where only the owner/trustees have the combo. Still, it's a best practice or at most an ATF opinion without a specific law in reference, and it's in a specific circumstance that may not apply.
Last edited:
- Jul 29, 2014
- 50,085
I deleted a few of my posts because I was going on an incorrect assumption.
Might there be a need for three safes? One for dad's NFAs, one for Jr's NFA stuff, and maybe a third for everything else?
Might there be a need for three safes? One for dad's NFAs, one for Jr's NFA stuff, and maybe a third for everything else?
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