Question on NFA item storage

[babalou]

I deleted a few of my posts because I was going on an incorrect assumption.

Might there be a need for three safes? One for dad's NFAs, one for Jr's NFA stuff, and maybe a third for everything else?

you get a safe. you get a safe... you all get a safe.

 

[IMBLITZVT]

....IMO, legally without a specific storage requirement, you could leave an NFA item hanging on the wall in your room, and in the exceedingly rare event that was found out without an unauthorized person taking your NFA device to the range by themselves or something, it would be a hard charge to make stick. ....

Yes! God Yes!

This is the another one of those "big" questions that comes up only because some people wanted to sell gun Trusts! If you have a Tank with a NFA DD gun, do you put it in a safe? This is a NON-issue. You can hang your MG on the wall and leave the house with your wife and the repair man there and its still not changing possession of the gun. Its your house! Its only natural that your property would be in your house. You only need to address this when its not natural. So if you are going to leave the gun at a friends then you need to deny him access.

 

[alucard0822]

Yes! God Yes!

This is the another one of those "big" questions that comes up only because some people wanted to sell gun Trusts! If you have a Tank with a NFA DD gun, do you put it in a safe? This is a NON-issue. You can hang your MG on the wall and leave the house with your wife and the repair man there and its still not changing possession of the gun. Its your house! Its only natural that your property would be in your house. You only need to address this when its not natural. So if you are going to leave the gun at a friends then you need to deny him access.

well said, this is basically how the law/regs in the OP's scenario was presented to me. That shops and many people are claiming that unsupervised access = possession/transfer. In most gun law that is not the case, even if you lend someone a rifle, it is not considered a transfer, but could be possession although there is little case law to clarify this. The vast majority of NFA/possession charges in case law are for the crime of "possession of an unregistered NFA device", not possession of a REGISTERED NFA device. Although it "could" be negligence if you leave a MG on the kitchen table, and without minors in the house someone were to take it. In reality the guideline only applies to a place that is not your residence/under your control. Would probably end up being a charge for the person possessing it, maybe even a theft charge, but there is 0 case law where someone living with you gets a possession charge and you get an unlawful transfer charge just because they had some form of access to it. Not to say it can't happen, but is extremely unlikely. also as of note I am addressing federal law, state laws may be different.

Possession by a non-prohibited person is a grey area, the crimes of REGISTERED NFA devices is an unlawful transfer, as far as what constitutes a transfer per 26.5845

(j)Transfer
The term “transfer” and the various derivatives of such word, shall include selling, assigning, pledging, leasing, loaning, giving away, or otherwise disposing of.

Hard to argue that having an NFA firearm unsecured in your own home shared with other people constitutes the above, but that is what they would have to prove to charge someone.

About all the law says about posessors provided they are not a prohibited person is:

Does the possessor of an NFA firearm have to show proof of registration?​

Yes. The approved application received from ATF serves as evidence of registration of the NFA firearm. This document must be made available upon request of any ATF officer. It is suggested that a photocopy of the approved application be carried by the possessor when the weapon is being transported.
[26 U.S.C. 5841(e); 27 CFR 479.101]

of note they do not say owner or trustee, so while it could be construed that a person other than the owner could use the firearm, and just has to show documentation on demand, it would probably run afoul of the "loaning" language in the NFA's definitions.

 

[outrider58]

I never considered the OP's question a legality question, more of a what would you do if you were me(if I may).

To all who carry more of a cavalier approach to NFA, have you ever had to report a stolen NFA item to the TFA?
An SOT once told me I might want to avoid doing that...

 

[GunBum]

Possession and access are not the same thing.

Continue splitting hairs as you wish.

 

[lazarus]

I believe he would have to have his own safe/locking cabinet. That way he doesn’t have access to yours and you don’t have access to his.

Correct. It needs to be in secure storage where only the individual can access it. OR if it is a trust item, only those on the trust can access it.

 

[calicojack]

Yes! God Yes!

This is the another one of those "big" questions that comes up only because some people wanted to sell gun Trusts!

I agree.

 

[IMBLITZVT]

I agree.

It really is sickening to watch as people do stuff like that to make a buck. Trust lawyers wanted to throw this into question to justify another reason to get you to buy their product. From that, came all this. Most people who worry about this are SBR owners who tend to be the most uptight NFA people. Oh I put a 10.5" instead of a 11" barrel on my gun for 30 seconds, let me inform the ATF types. How many NFA items are there that you could not fit in a safe? Pretty much ever tank with a live gun. Every piece of artillery. Most guns over 50 caliber. Many belt feds...etc. Back in the day, people did not have person safes for guns. Its all a big deal over nothing started to get some overly worried people to buy a trust! What happens when you die without a trust! Clearly you can't possess it assuming you are not buried with it! Now clearly someone who is not on the form has possession of it! Oh no, what ever can be done, the world will come to an end! I have seen widows go 15years without addressing the fact that a dead man's name is still on the paperwork and nothing bad comes from it.

 

[ericoak]

It really is sickening to watch as people do stuff like that to make a buck. Trust lawyers wanted to throw this into question to justify another reason to get you to buy their product. From that, came all this. Most people who worry about this are SBR owners who tend to be the most uptight NFA people. Oh I put a 10.5" instead of a 11" barrel on my gun for 30 seconds, let me inform the ATF types. How many NFA items are there that you could not fit in a safe? Pretty much ever tank with a live gun. Every piece of artillery. Most guns over 50 caliber. Many belt feds...etc. Back in the day, people did not have person safes for guns. Its all a big deal over nothing started to get some overly worried people to buy a trust! What happens when you die without a trust! Clearly you can't possess it assuming you are not buried with it! Now clearly someone who is not on the form has possession of it! Oh no, what ever can be done, the world will come to an end! I have seen widows go 15years without addressing the fact that a dead man's name is still on the paperwork and nothing bad comes from it.

Yep and they also sold it as a way to pass the guns to your kids, like you couldn't do a Form 5 without a trust Certainly easier with a trust though.