SB 1097 Likely rewritten to eliminate QHIC HQL Wear and Carry instructors

[Bertfish]

Thanks, I was looking for a letter just to be clear.

Agree. Thus my question on the letterhead.

If McKay improperly associated someone acting as a private citizen with their employer than shame on the Senator. But how would he have known unless it was explicitly stated?

If any employee took liberty with a company name that's another issue that's a private one between an employer and employee.

 

[dblas]

Somebody said they have a letter and Rs posted his take.
Let’s see the letter now.

Here you got:

Instructors should be trained in more than just NRA basic pistol or USCCA basic pistol training to properly train civilians to obtain Maryland wear and Carry. Currently an NRA or USCCA basic pistol course is acceptable to teach this course for Maryland. Our suggestion in addition to this training on safe pistol handling, instructors should additionally attend a 40-hour training program on use of non-lethal and lethal force. Instructors should receive training on clear definitions of lethal and non-lethal force, use lethal force only as a last resort after first exhausting reasonable alternatives, and only when it is necessary to protect from death or serious injury. Use of less than lethal force when it is necessary and proportionate to the goal. Determining whether use of force is justified requires looking at the totality of the circumstances around the use of force, including whether the use of de-escalation techniques, and whether the individuals’ actions increased the need to use force. At a minimum instructors should be trained in such skills as:

• Justifying the use of deadly force in self-defense
• Use of non-lethal force in self-defense
• Understanding the affirmative defense of self-defense
• Physiological phenomenon involved in deadly force incidents.
• Criminal law and self-defense
• Dynamics of violent encounters
• Mock courtroom exercise
• Issues from actual self-defense cases (case studies)

Additional recommendations would be class sizes, maximum of 30 people (some locations have hosted 100+ person classes, there is no way to properly train with classes that size) A minimum of 1 instructor per 10 people in classroom setting, as well as 1 certified range safety officer per 3 shooters.

 

[dblas]

Somebody up thread said there was a letter.
Where’s it at?
That’s all I want to know. Not what some Rockville transplant to the western part of the state says.

My original post was Post 47, and reposted it at your request.

 

[tjv4163]

Thanks, I was looking for a letter just to be clear.

The "letter" was sent by McKey in an email Im sure it was an email to him, no letter head is on it. I doubt there was to begin with. Lets see how the person answers my questions if he does.. They were simple.. they were... Please tell us what the intent of it is here. No need for phone calls let’s put it in the open. I’ll ask another question do think this will hinder people from getting permits or do you think this will help them get permits? If you think it will hinder will you testify against one of your own employees?

 

[Doco Overboard]

Still don’t see a letter.

 

[dblas]

Agree. Thus my question on the letterhead.

If McKay improperly associated someone acting as a private citizen with their employer than shame on the Senator. But how would he have known unless it was explicitly stated?

If any employee took liberty with a company name that's another issue that's a private one between an employer and employee.

The letter sent to me, and the one that I shared were removed from letterhead/e-mail before it was sent to me.

 

[Bertfish]

The letter sent to me, and the one that I shared were removed from letterhead/e-mail before it was sent to me.

Ok. It was reposted as received then.

You're a good man fighting a good fight. Thanks

 

[dblas]

Still don’t see a letter.

One more time,

As it was sent to me:

Instructors should be trained in more than just NRA basic pistol or USCCA basic pistol training to properly train civilians to obtain Maryland wear and Carry. Currently an NRA or USCCA basic pistol course is acceptable to teach this course for Maryland. Our suggestion in addition to this training on safe pistol handling, instructors should additionally attend a 40-hour training program on use of non-lethal and lethal force. Instructors should receive training on clear definitions of lethal and non-lethal force, use lethal force only as a last resort after first exhausting reasonable alternatives, and only when it is necessary to protect from death or serious injury. Use of less than lethal force when it is necessary and proportionate to the goal. Determining whether use of force is justified requires looking at the totality of the circumstances around the use of force, including whether the use of de-escalation techniques, and whether the individuals’ actions increased the need to use force. At a minimum instructors should be trained in such skills as:

• Justifying the use of deadly force in self-defense
• Use of non-lethal force in self-defense
• Understanding the affirmative defense of self-defense
• Physiological phenomenon involved in deadly force incidents.
• Criminal law and self-defense
• Dynamics of violent encounters
• Mock courtroom exercise
• Issues from actual self-defense cases (case studies)

Additional recommendations would be class sizes, maximum of 30 people (some locations have hosted 100+ person classes, there is no way to properly train with classes that size) A minimum of 1 instructor per 10 people in classroom setting, as well as 1 certified range safety officer per 3 shooters.

 

[dblas]

UPDATE:
The letter came from Tim Otwell himself, not from Atlantic Tactical, or associated with Atlantic Tactical as intimated to me by Senator McKay.
So, RS Mitchell and Atlantic Tactical are NOT behind this from a phone discussion I just had with RS.
More to come after we all talk, with RS, Tim Otwell, John Josselyn, and myself.

 

[Bertfish]

UPDATE:
The letter came from Tim Otwell himself, not from Atlantic Tactical, or associated with Atlantic Tactical as intimated to me by Senator McKay.
So, RS Mitchell and Atlantic Tactical are NOT behind this from a phone discussion I just had with RS.
More to come after we all talk, with RS, Tim Otwell, John Josselyn, and myself.

That's pretty fvcked up of McKay then. But he had to have been told who his employer was in order to pass it on.

 

[dblas]

That's pretty fvcked up of McKay then. But he had to have been told who his employer was in order to pass it on.

According to RS (and he can correct me if I am wrong) Tim is a partner in the company, but not doing this as Atlantic, but as himself.

 

[Bertfish]

According to RS (and he can correct me if I am wrong) Tim is a partner in the company, but not doing this as Atlantic, but as himself.

Yeah I'm getting what you're saying. But the Senator connecting the two really made this look different than it is.

 

[welder516]

Sen. McKay does not appear to be a fart smeller IMHO , his conversation seemed to be more Biden approved. Did this entire chit-show start with McKay ?? and how he mentioned Tim Otwell which if i read right is a MSP retiree and we all know how they want the general public to have more rights.

The entire bill sucks and whomever suggested it should be run out of town and the GOP Sen. should go as well.

Edit**** Partner Never sent or did work on this during business hours. Sounds legit.

 

[1time]

According to RS (and he can correct me if I am wrong) Tim is a partner in the company, but not doing this as Atlantic, but as himself.

I wonder who Our in Our suggestion is?

 

[tjv4163]

Is Tim Ortell even a MD instructor? I dont see him coming up when searched? If thats the case we have someone who is a partner of a business in MD that teaches MD classes (and others which he can teach here) who isnt a Md instructor telling a senator what he PERSONALLY thinks Md instructors should go through to be an instructor.. Is this correct...

 

[Batt816]

As said before, those that are pushing for this are nothing but tyrants. Who are they to add even more obstacles for instructors, which surely will trickle down to HGP permit applicants.

 

[Doco Overboard]

One more time,

As it was sent to me:

Instructors should be trained in more than just NRA basic pistol or USCCA basic pistol training to properly train civilians to obtain Maryland wear and Carry. Currently an NRA or USCCA basic pistol course is acceptable to teach this course for Maryland. Our suggestion in addition to this training on safe pistol handling, instructors should additionally attend a 40-hour training program on use of non-lethal and lethal force. Instructors should receive training on clear definitions of lethal and non-lethal force, use lethal force only as a last resort after first exhausting reasonable alternatives, and only when it is necessary to protect from death or serious injury. Use of less than lethal force when it is necessary and proportionate to the goal. Determining whether use of force is justified requires looking at the totality of the circumstances around the use of force, including whether the use of de-escalation techniques, and whether the individuals’ actions increased the need to use force. At a minimum instructors should be trained in such skills as:

• Justifying the use of deadly force in self-defense
• Use of non-lethal force in self-defense
• Understanding the affirmative defense of self-defense
• Physiological phenomenon involved in deadly force incidents.
• Criminal law and self-defense
• Dynamics of violent encounters
• Mock courtroom exercise
• Issues from actual self-defense cases (case studies)

Additional recommendations would be class sizes, maximum of 30 people (some locations have hosted 100+ person classes, there is no way to properly train with classes that size) A minimum of 1 instructor per 10 people in classroom setting, as well as 1 certified range safety officer per 3 shooters.

One more time. So you don’t have a letter.
Just some cut and paste from somewhere else. Why didn’t you just say so in the first place?
Gotcha.

 

[welder516]

As said before, those that are pushing for this are nothing but tyrants. Who are they to add even more obstacles for instructors, which surely will trickle down to HGP permit applicants.

Agreed, and will add more cost to all of us when we renew for a God given right. Some folks may have to choose between protection and a roof over their heads.
Money grab and an infringement grab, just another way to F-us and the rub is they get a GOP Sen. to deliver this crap.

 

[tjv4163]

One more time. So you don’t have a letter.
Just some cut and paste from somewhere else. Why didn’t you just say so in the first place?
Gotcha.

You just want to make excuses. Its been made public now that the letter was from Tim Ortell ( a partner at Atlantic) but he was acting as a private citizen that sent the email.

 

[welder516]

One more time. So you don’t have a letter.
Just some cut and paste from somewhere else. Why didn’t you just say so in the first place?
Gotcha.

My guess there is a letter, it may not be a letter from a gun business. Maybe just a private citizen sent a letter to the Sen. and the Sen. ran it up the flagpole.
Maybe it is this Tim Otwell guy maybe not