SB387 "Public Safety - Untraceable Firearms" - The Ban on Private Firearm Making

[Trappemann]

following Bruen, i think we'll have legal precedent set with the recent DE case decision overturning the ban on PMF and the recent WV case ruling that the presence of a serial number is not required anywhere in the text, history, or tradition of our nation's founding documents or principles and therefore Unconstitutional.

that said, it'll still take someone pushing it to court in MD to overturn the MD rule... but it seems impossible to that it would stand scrutiny.

my $0.02 for the change jar...

So why don't we urge one of our organizations to do so?

 

[ironpony]

So why don't we urge one of our organizations to do so?

Bump

The 8 year process should begin ...

 

[ironpony]

So why don't we urge one of our organizations to do so?

Bump

The 8 year process should begin ...

 

[pcfixer]

dblas quoted:
Yep, on it's face, but that law still needs to be challenged in Maryland and found the same using the same logic as the Judge in WV did. Would a Federal District Judge in Maryland find the same way? I sure hope so. The guidance is pretty clear to you and me, but there are those that believe SCOTUS got it wrong and may decide to skirt the edge of the Bruen ruling. The outcome of that is that it goes to the 4th Circuit and they decide, which it would anyway given that absolutely no one will settle for a Federal District ruling against them for either side.

Now the question, how do we mount a challenge without having someone violate the law?

 

[grasser]

I apologize if this is not the correct forum. I purchased about a dozen Polymer 80 kits (PF490v2) about 5 years ago and have been getting serial numbers engraved by an FFL per the new law. I've also registered all of them with the MSP well before the March 31st 2023 deadline. I noticed that one of my boxes was missing the parts kit, front & rear locking blocks and pins. I found a website called "1776 Supply Company" that was selling this hardware for $54. It was a bit expensive for two pins and two pieces of bent metal but after all the money I've spent on this hobby so far, it seemed like the right thing to do.

When I went to purchase it, the web page said, "This product is not available for your State". I was caught off guard by this because it wasn't a frame or jig, just some miscellaneous hardware. Does the MD law really restrict selling those 4 pieces of hardware? It sounds like over reach to me. After all, I have the frame, which was serialized by an FFL and registered and I have the jig. All I need are those 4 pieces of hardware.

Is this company really restricted from selling those innoculous pieces of hardware and if it isn't restricted, does anyone have any suggestions for a place that might be an alternate supplier. For the record, I thought building my own Glock clone was a fun hobby but it isn't cheap. A minimal frills type of build will wind up costing close to $600. That doesn't take into account the time to build, test, tweak & retest until it is perfect. I was able to purchase a law enforcement trade-in for $299. If I knew all this hassle would be involved, I would have never gotten involved in this hobby. Sorry for the rant at the end.

 

[hammer67]

I apologize if this is not the correct forum. I purchased about a dozen Polymer 80 kits (PF490v2) about 5 years ago and have been getting serial numbers engraved by an FFL per the new law. I've also registered all of them with the MSP well before the March 31st 2023 deadline. I noticed that one of my boxes was missing the parts kit, front & rear locking blocks and pins. I found a website called "1776 Supply Company" that was selling this hardware for $54. It was a bit expensive for two pins and two pieces of bent metal but after all the money I've spent on this hobby so far, it seemed like the right thing to do.

When I went to purchase it, the web page said, "This product is not available for your State". I was caught off guard by this because it wasn't a frame or jig, just some miscellaneous hardware. Does the MD law really restrict selling those 4 pieces of hardware? It sounds like over reach to me. After all, I have the frame, which was serialized by an FFL and registered and I have the jig. All I need are those 4 pieces of hardware.

Is this company really restricted from selling those innoculous pieces of hardware and if it isn't restricted, does anyone have any suggestions for a place that might be an alternate supplier. For the record, I thought building my own Glock clone was a fun hobby but it isn't cheap. A minimal frills type of build will wind up costing close to $600. That doesn't take into account the time to build, test, tweak & retest until it is perfect. I was able to purchase a law enforcement trade-in for $299. If I knew all this hassle would be involved, I would have never gotten involved in this hobby. Sorry for the rant at the end.

First call would have been to polymer 80.

Don't think those parts are prohibited? A full kit is. Can't buy full kit since June I think. Lot of companies just don't want to work through maze of regulations in some states. Lot of companies won't ship any handguns to MD even though the gun itself is not prohibited. If mag over 10 rounds, an ffl can pin it. But some companies just refuse to ship to MD. Even if mag doesn’t hold more than 10 rounds.

Possessing mags over 10 rounds not illegal in MD. They just won't ship them. But there are plenty of ways to get them, all legal. Use same methods to get parts you need. Just figure it out.

So exactly what format did you use on serializing? Not enough room on poly80's to follow what is required.

 

[wpage]

 

[Batt816]

First call would have been to polymer 80.

Don't think those parts are prohibited? A full kit is. Can't buy full kit since June I think. Lot of companies just don't want to work through maze of regulations in some states. Lot of companies won't ship any handguns to MD even though the gun itself is not prohibited. If mag over 10 rounds, an ffl can pin it. But some companies just refuse to ship to MD. Even if mag doesn’t hold more than 10 rounds.

Possessing mags over 10 rounds not illegal in MD. They just won't ship them. But there are plenty of ways to get them, all legal. Use same methods to get parts you need. Just figure it out.

So exactly what format did you use on serializing? Not enough room on poly80's to follow what is required.

There is enough room. I had 2 done- 20 characters, ATF and Maryland stupidity.

 

[hammer67]

There is enough room. I had 2 done- 20 characters, ATF and Maryland stupidity.

MD format or ATF? I can't recall what each was but I know not the same.

 

[Batt816]

Mine are the FFL # with Maryland # (owners zip, initials and 3 unique #s) for example “87892312-21618MDS022”

it surprised me that it all fit, but it did, and looks very professional.

 

[grasser]

First call would have been to polymer 80.

Don't think those parts are prohibited? A full kit is. Can't buy full kit since June I think. Lot of companies just don't want to work through maze of regulations in some states. Lot of companies won't ship any handguns to MD even though the gun itself is not prohibited. If mag over 10 rounds, an ffl can pin it. But some companies just refuse to ship to MD. Even if mag doesn’t hold more than 10 rounds.

Possessing mags over 10 rounds not illegal in MD. They just won't ship them. But there are plenty of ways to get them, all legal. Use same methods to get parts you need. Just figure it out.

So exactly what format did you use on serializing? Not enough room on poly80's to follow what is required.

Your FFL will know what to do. All that is needed is some characters from the beginning and end of the FFL license followed by a dash and 3 characters. This matches what the MD State Police told me as well. The MSP is very responsive and courteous when I contacted them and usually gets back to me within a day.

 

[hammer67]

Your FFL will know what to do. All that is needed is some characters from the beginning and end of the FFL license followed by a dash and 3 characters. This matches what the MD State Police told me as well. The MSP is very responsive and courteous when I contacted them and usually gets back to me within a day.

I'm shocked it fit! I thought way back on this thread it was felt that it would not and therefore they couldn't be registered. Seems like ages ago-137 pages!

 

[grasser]

MD format or ATF? I can't recall what each was but I know not the same.

I was told that after the deadline at the end of last Sept (don't recall the exact date) the ATF approved format is required. Those that had the MD version (zip code + initials + 3 numbers) prior to that date is still valid and the ATF will accept it. Eight of my P80s have the MD version and 4 have the ATF version. Some FFLs told me to dremel off the MD SN and have it redone with the ATF version. I checked with the MSP and they said not to do that and it was illegal. He said the MD version is still valid so there is no need to try to change it. However, he said if there is room (mine do not have any room), you could have the FFL engrave their portion of the number above or in front of the MD version. That is a show stopper for me so I will just leave well enough alone.

 

[Batt816]

I'm shocked it fit! I thought way back on this thread it was felt that it would not and therefore they couldn't be registered. Seems like ages ago-137 pages!

something like this.

 

[grasser]

Personally, I wish one of the major gun advocates would challenge the magazine limit. I read an article that stated that police have a 15-20% hit rate when confronting criminals. Assuming 20%, the higher of the two, that means only 2 of a 10 round magazine will hit its target. (Remember, this is not paper targets at the range it is a hostile person). I also read that many times home invasions involve more than one person and as many as 4. It should be common sense that home protection should enable the home owner to be allowed as many rounds as they can get to be prepared for the worst case. I'm surprised that this is not challenged given what the data suggests.

 

[treasurehunter]

I was told that after the deadline at the end of last Sept (don't recall the exact date) the ATF approved format is required. Those that had the MD version (zip code + initials + 3 numbers) prior to that date is still valid and the ATF will accept it. Eight of my P80s have the MD version and 4 have the ATF version. Some FFLs told me to dremel off the MD SN and have it redone with the ATF version. I checked with the MSP and they said not to do that and it was illegal. He said the MD version is still valid so there is no need to try to change it. However, he said if there is room (mine do not have any room), you could have the FFL engrave their portion of the number above or in front of the MD version. That is a show stopper for me so I will just leave well enough alone.

What ia a correct example of the ATF version of numbering?

 

[Batt816]

What ia a correct example of the ATF version of numbering?

Post #2730 gives an example.

 

[treasurehunter]

Post #2730 gives an example.

Thats the MD version.

 

[Batt816]

Thats the MD version.

No, it’s both ATF and MD.

 

[pcfixer]

"All laws which are repugnant to the Constitution are null and void." Marbury vs. Madison, 5 US (2 Cranch) 137, 174, 176, (1803)

"Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no rule making or legislation which would abrogate them." Miranda vs. Arizona, 384 US 436 p. 491.

REPLY
dblas quoted:
Yep, on it's face, but that law still needs to be challenged in Maryland and found the same using the same logic as the Judge in WV did. Would a Federal District Judge in Maryland find the same way? I sure hope so. The guidance is pretty clear to you and me, but there are those that believe SCOTUS got it wrong and may decide to skirt the edge of the Bruen ruling. The outcome of that is that it goes to the 4th Circuit and they decide, which it would anyway given that absolutely no one will settle for a Federal District ruling against them for either side.

Now the question, how do we mount a challenge without having someone violate the law?