SB387 "Public Safety - Untraceable Firearms" - The Ban on Private Firearm Making

[mvee]

I guess the pre 68 home built guns like this one will be grandfathered. I wonder how the state could tell those from the post 68 guns. https://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?180743&p=3982430#post3982430

 

[Bertfish]

I guess the pre 68 home built guns like this one will be grandfathered. I wonder how the state could tell those from the post 68 guns. https://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?180743&p=3982430#post3982430

It specifically exempts firearms made prior to 1968

Who is the burden on to prove that fact? Do I have to prove it is pre 68 or do they have to prove its post 68?

 

[mvee]

It specifically exempts firearms made prior to 1968

Who is the burden on to prove that fact? Do I have to prove it is pre 68 or do they have to prove its post 68?

Exactly. How could they prove when they were made? I have a 1911 forging similar to this. If it was made prior to 68 its good. It may be illegal if it was made after. When was it made? How do you know? https://www.proxibid.com/Firearms-M...T-1911-PISTOL-FORGING/lotinformation/57871471

 

[lazarus]

It specifically exempts firearms made prior to 1968

Who is the burden on to prove that fact? Do I have to prove it is pre 68 or do they have to prove its post 68?

You of course.

Sure, sure, perhaps maybe to secure a conviction they’ll have to prove it if the judge and/or jury are reasonable. But they decide they want to throw you in jail and bring you up on charges…

My JC Whitney .410 shotgun is pre 68 with no serial number. But they made then across ‘68 also. I don’t think I could actually PROVE I didn’t do an excellent job sanding off the serial number on a 68 model and re-bluing it (I think they stopped making this specific model in 69? They changed the model numbers, but I think kept selling it in to the early 70s. But I could be thinking of a single shot 20ga made by someone else I used to have).

I’d certainly never do that to try to hide some old .410 pump shotguns serial (like, why the hell?) but I can’t prove I didn’t do that. I guess maybe forensic analysis to look at the grain structure of the metal under where later JC Whitney .410 shotguns were serialized to prove that there is grain stress where it was embossed (or in this case, no grain stress there, because it wasn’t ever embossed with a serial number).

The shit can get pretty stupid. I’d just HOPE police and DAs wouldn’t bend over everyone they come across with an old looking gun that doesn’t have a serial number.

 

[lazarus]

Exactly. How could they prove when they were made? I have a 1911 forging similar to this. If it was made prior to 68 its good. It may be illegal if it was made after. When was it made? How do you know? https://www.proxibid.com/Firearms-M...T-1911-PISTOL-FORGING/lotinformation/57871471

See my above posting. At least if it was a manufacture or importer firearm that they did in fact serialize, if the serial was removed, you can sometimes enhance the surface metal to see the original serial, even if someone did a good job scrubbing it. An X-ray cat scan can often reveal the old serial as the grain of the underlying metal is changed when embossed.

Though an FFL that engraved a serial number I don’t think would show up. Only if it was embossed.

But if it was a privately made firearm? Not a chance.

Well, they COULD prove through radioisotope analysis the rough date of manufacture. But it would be super rough.

Steel manufactured after atomic bomb testing began incorporated a lot of extra radioisotopes. For a long while there we were raiding sunken WWII wrecks for low radioactivity steel for certain things like very sensitive instruments and things like Geiger counters. But the last couple of decades after the test ban treaty background radiation has dropped enough that isn’t really an issue. Basically the blast furnace process incorporates a lot of atmospheric radioisotopes in the steel. I don’t believe aluminum is/was similarly impacted.

But steel made in the 1950s through at least the 70s (80s?) has sufficient extra radioisotopes in it you could likely tell if something made from steel was made in that 30 or so year range.

I don’t think you could realistically tell exactly when it was made or if it was made early in that period or late.

And who the F is sending a gun off to basically Lawrence Livermore or one of probably a couple dozen university or government research facilities that could probably do such an analysis just to try to PROVE your 1911 was made from steel in 1995 vs 1965.

 

[Nickberg500]

See my above posting. At least if it was a manufacture or importer firearm that they did in fact serialize, if the serial was removed, you can sometimes enhance the surface metal to see the original serial, even if someone did a good job scrubbing it. An X-ray cat scan can often reveal the old serial as the grain of the underlying metal is changed when embossed.

Though an FFL that engraved a serial number I don’t think would show up. Only if it was embossed.

But if it was a privately made firearm? Not a chance.

Well, they COULD prove through radioisotope analysis the rough date of manufacture. But it would be super rough.

Steel manufactured after atomic bomb testing began incorporated a lot of extra radioisotopes. For a long while there we were raiding sunken WWII wrecks for low radioactivity steel for certain things like very sensitive instruments and things like Geiger counters. But the last couple of decades after the test ban treaty background radiation has dropped enough that isn’t really an issue. Basically the blast furnace process incorporates a lot of atmospheric radioisotopes in the steel. I don’t believe aluminum is/was similarly impacted.

But steel made in the 1950s through at least the 70s (80s?) has sufficient extra radioisotopes in it you could likely tell if something made from steel was made in that 30 or so year range.

I don’t think you could realistically tell exactly when it was made or if it was made early in that period or late.

And who the F is sending a gun off to basically Lawrence Livermore or one of probably a couple dozen university or government research facilities that could probably do such an analysis just to try to PROVE your 1911 was made from steel in 1995 vs 1965.

I think the bigger problem with pre-68 pistols at this point is age. The HQL has been around long enough that people in their late twenties/early thirties aren't old enough to have bought an old 1911 in a private sale before that requirement.

 

[Nickberg500]

I got in touch with John Crump on his tip line - check it out, he covered the upcoming bills on his YouTube channel, and posted an AmmoLand article:

https://youtu.be/5cngdZaEN40

https://www.ammoland.com/2022/02/ma...rearms-and-unserialized-frames/#axzz7JsESywQK

 

[lazarus]

I think the bigger problem with pre-68 pistols at this point is age. The HQL has been around long enough that people in their late twenties/early thirties aren't old enough to have bought an old 1911 in a private sale before that requirement.

Sure for younger guys (hell, me. I am only 38). But there are still plenty of pre-68 long guns too.

But that still wouldn’t cover a transfer of a pre vs post 68 privately made firearm. Someone could have made their own 1911 back in 1965 and then sold it to me 5 years ago. There’d be no recorded serial number in MSP database or the FFL’s bound book for that gun as it hasn’t required a S/N as an FFL didn’t build it.

There’d be a record of the transfer, but not when the thing was actually manufactured.

Could/would a law enforcement officer take a wild guess if looking at something if it seems like a manufacturer made it and it has no serial number. Well at that point, the choices are probably pre-1968, or ground off serial number. What do law enforcement officers do today with that? Guess if the gun looks old?

I don’t know the answer. I guess I am privately somewhat glad the only pre-1968 gun I own that doesn’t have a serial number is pretty obviously pretty old looking.

Of course I have some P80 builds. So I am impacted by this stupid law. Even if I wasn’t, I wouldn’t want this damned travesty to pass. It isn’t even a reaction to actual ATF regulation. It is written based on the premise that proposed ATF regulations, which have already been pulled back and are being slow walked!!!, will go in to effect and go in to effect soon enough Marylanders can comply.

Or worse, with the intention there is and will not be a legal way to comply.

But at least on that one issue, I am not too worried even if the law went in to effect some officer would be likely to question if maybe, possibly my mid 60s JC Whitney 410 pump might be POST 1968 and needs a serial number.

 

[DC-W]

MSI's official testimony is available here: https://www.marylandshallissue.org/...-and-sb387-public-safety-untraceable-firearms

 

[Malleovic]

I've had a very hard time unraveling with the specific requirements are going to be if this passes re:

-Finished home built firearms (non-NFA) that do not currently bear a serial number
-Unfinished 80s that DO bear a serial number/relevant info (say, beginnings of an NFA project that never panned out, for example)

For the hypotheticals above, will there be any practical avenue to getting square with this bill as it's written? Does it hinge on finding a specific type of FFL? Should the hypothetical owner of the above items attempt to finish them in advance of this bill taking effect?

This stuff makes the hypothetical head hurt.

 

[DC-W]

The serial must be as the bill describes with the first three and last five digits of the FFL who engraves it, plus “another number.” It must be engraved to the same depth and height specs the feds require of manufacturers. If it’s not done this way, it’s not in compliance and the owner must get rid of it or get into compliance to be legal.

MSI’s testimony explains the problems with all of this:

https://www.marylandshallissue.org/...-and-sb387-public-safety-untraceable-firearms

 

[Patattack88]

Seems nuts there thousand of them in the state and how many engravers are in the state? And whats the point of FFLs buying these engraves for 6 months of use and thats it. Idk the stock level of engraving machines but if its like everything else very low and expensive. But i bet there endgame it to end this home build hobby, regain there grip on control and hope we all comply and destroy these weapons that we built that was legal yesterday and today but illegal tomorrow. Hopefully there alot of motivation were it counts in the testimonies and committees like it was a couple of years ago on gun bill day were there attempts failed.


"We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender, and even if, which I do not for a moment believe, this island or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our Empire beyond the seas“ Winston Churchill

 

[THier]

Frosh was on TV telling everyone to sell their: unserialized guns.

 

[Boats]

Frosh was on TV telling everyone to sell their: unserialized guns.

Seriously?

The states attorney was telling everyone to commit a federal felony.

 

[rbird7282]

Seriously?

The states attorney was telling everyone to commit a federal felony.

Except it’s not


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Slackdaddy]

And once again proving that this bill has NOTHING to do with violent felons access to firearms.

Frosh was on TV telling everyone to sell their: unserialized guns.

 

[ironpony]

Hypothetically they could pass a law saying possession of a firearm is illegal as of Oct. 1, half of gun owners would toss them in the Bay, then in 8-9 years SCOTUS will strike it down, then MD could say they cut firearm ownership by 50%, a win.

 

[MigraineMan]

The Baltimore Sun editorial board [predictably] weighs in ...

Last Friday, a Montgomery County teen used a “ghost gun” to shoot a fellow student at Magruder High School in Rockville. The wounded 15-year-old remains hospitalized. The 17-year-old gunman was arrested on charges including attempted second-degree murder. Police were fortunate to have a suspect as the gun lacked a serial number and thus was untraceable.

Oh, the horror.

And last year, Commissioner Michael Harrison reported that at least 69 acts of violence were traced to the 345 ghost guns recovered, and there’s a lot more where they came from. According to the advocacy group Moms Demand Action, more than 12,000 ghost gun kits were shipped to Maryland between 2016 and 2019.

./me clutches pearls

 

[Bertfish]

The Baltimore Sun editorial board [predictably] weighs in ...

Oh, the horror.

./me clutches pearls

Someone ask them where they got that 12k number from

 

[teratos]

The Baltimore Sun editorial board [predictably] weighs in ...

Oh, the horror.

./me clutches pearls

Does knowing who the gun was stolen from solve crime?