Squaregrouper's SHTF Water Info Thread

[Boondock Saint]

What concerns should someone have regarding stored water in a container like this? In theory, the jug and cap have been treated with bleach and allowed to sanitize ahead of time. Fill it and forget about it for five years. Cool, dark place. Thoughts?

 

[AntiGun]

What concerns should someone have regarding stored water in a container like this? In theory, the jug and cap have been treated with bleach and allowed to sanitize ahead of time. Fill it and forget about it for five years. Cool, dark place. Thoughts?

The quality of the starting water would impact the potential storage life. I've kept sealed commercial bottled water for well past the marked expiration dates. 3 years after and it starts to get a bit funky with noticeable floaties in it.

 

[km04]

My offer still stands for anyone to offer their portable potable water filter for bacterial testing.
I will provide water with a coliform count of 1000mpn (Most Probable Number)and run it through your filter. We will collect the effluent/filtered water and I will take it to our laboratory for analysis. If your filter has a log 3 reduction, I would be surprised. In layman's terms- each log removes 90% (log 1=90%, log 2 =99%, log 3 =99.9%, log 4=99.99% etc) I cannot see a portable particulate, non chemical, filter reducing bacterial counts from 1000 to 1.
Any takers?

You have a PM

This is going to be fun!!!

Of course I see this late. I would love to know the brand of filter used for this test. If you need a different brand, assuming you did not use one that I have, I would be willing to use one of mine.

 

[Squaregrouper]

Of course I see this late. I would love to know the brand of filter used for this test. If you need a different brand, assuming you did not use one that I have, I would be willing to use one of mine.

I will be testing a Sawyer Mini. Whatchagot?

 

[Squaregrouper]

The quality of the starting water would impact the potential storage life. I've kept sealed commercial bottled water for well past the marked expiration dates. 3 years after and it starts to get a bit funky with noticeable floaties in it.

This.
For drinking water, I keep gallon jugs of store bought purified water. This is the safest, most economical way to keep plenty of potable/drinking water on hand. A gallon jug will run ~$1 and will last for years.
I have 55 and 15 gallon drums going in my attic. Those will be chlorinated to 3ppm free chlorine and sealed. Their main purpose will be gravity fed for hygiene. I will change out the water every 6-8 months. (completing job once my post surgery hand strength is back)

 

[TomisinMd]

Cool thread!
not a filter issue, but for no power to a well, I'm looking at a Bison pump.


http://bisonpumps.com/

 

[AntiGun]

This.
For drinking water, I keep gallon jugs of store bought purified water. This is the safest, most economical way to keep plenty of potable/drinking water on hand. A gallon jug will run ~$1 and will last for years.
I have 55 and 15 gallon drums going in my attic. Those will be chlorinated to 3ppm free chlorine and sealed. Their main purpose will be gravity fed for hygiene. I will change out the water every 6-8 months. (completing job once my post surgery hand strength is back)

I left some Deer Park and Nestle bottled water sit in a cool dark basement for many years. I recently moved and discovered some forgotten bottles. The aforementioned 3 year past expiration stuff as well as a few from over 10 years ago. Of the 10 year old stuff, the Deer Park looked, smelled, and tasted better than the Nestle. To be thorough, if I boiled it(maybe not even needed) then ran it through a particulate filter it would be serviceable in an emergency.

I see someone has offered a sawyer mini already so I'll keep mine but I will throw in a lifestraw for testing if you don't have one yet.

Are you serial diluting an E.coli culture to arrive at the MPN and then followup testing for CFU?

 

[Squaregrouper]

I left some Deer Park and Nestle bottled water sit in a cool dark basement for many years. I recently moved and discovered some forgotten bottles. The aforementioned 3 year past expiration stuff as well as a few from over 10 years ago. Of the 10 year old stuff, the Deer Park looked, smelled, and tasted better than the Nestle. To be thorough, if I boiled it(maybe not even needed) then ran it through a particulate filter it would be serviceable in an emergency.

I see someone has offered a sawyer mini already so I'll keep mine but I will throw in a lifestraw for testing if you don't have one yet.

Are you serial diluting an E.coli culture to arrive at the MPN and then followup testing for CFU?

CFU (Colony Forming Units) and MPN (Most Probable Number) are different tests. CFU is accurately used for lower numbers and MPN for bulk testing. We outsource our MPN tests and if they fail, we re-test in house using CFU. If the CFU is TNTC (too numerous to count) it is considered the same as a max reading of >2419.6 on a MPN test. Anyways, the test I will personally do will provide results in CFU- targeting a log reduction between samples. I will post photographs of the results on MDS. I will be taking a contaminated sample and filtering it to determine the log reduction.
Dilution is not feasible, as the incubation time is 24-30 hours and I wouldn't know what changed in the original sample during that time- invalidating the test.
To make a long story short, I will be pulling a 200ml (vs. 100ml standard) sample from a source which consistently tests ~1000mpn coliform and ~100mpn E. coli. Half will be tested as is, the other half will be filtered and then tested. I will be manually counting colonies using a CFU culture disc.

Please provide a Lifestraw. It would be great to test multiple systems.

 

[Squaregrouper]

I left some Deer Park and Nestle bottled water sit in a cool dark basement for many years. I recently moved and discovered some forgotten bottles. The aforementioned 3 year past expiration stuff as well as a few from over 10 years ago. Of the 10 year old stuff, the Deer Park looked, smelled, and tasted better than the Nestle. To be thorough, if I boiled it(maybe not even needed) then ran it through a particulate filter it would be serviceable in an emergency.

I see someone has offered a sawyer mini already so I'll keep mine but I will throw in a lifestraw for testing if you don't have one yet.

Are you serial diluting an E.coli culture to arrive at the MPN and then followup testing for CFU?

I think Deer Park is UV irradiated spring water and Nestle is ozonated reverse osmosis water. This is odd, as UV simply kills pathogens, while ozone actually oxidizes them. I would have expected the results to have been the opposite.
Potassium permangenate or boiling is the only thing I would do. I can't see a particulate filter helping in that situation.

 

[AntiGun]

I think Deer Park is UV irradiated spring water and Nestle is ozonated reverse osmosis water. This is odd, as UV simply kills pathogens, while ozone actually oxidizes them. I would have expected the results to have been the opposite.
Potassium permangenate or boiling is the only thing I would do. I can't see a particulate filter helping in that situation.

I'm not sure why you distinguish between the two killing methods. If either is done properly then there would be no pathogens in the bottle.

I dropped some of the old water on an LB plate and nothing grew from either after 3 days but LB is not blood agar so I'd still boil the really old stuff. I mentioned particulate filtering because there were floaties in both but more so in the Nestle. No slime, no green, just small fine shiny flakes. Maybe plastic since that was the predominant taste. The Nestle bottles were very soft and squishy after 10 years.

 

[AntiGun]

CFU (Colony Forming Units) and MPN (Most Probable Number) are different tests. CFU is accurately used for lower numbers and MPN for bulk testing. We outsource our MPN tests and if they fail, we re-test in house using CFU. If the CFU is TNTC (too numerous to count) it is considered the same as a max reading of >2419.6 on a MPN test. Anyways, the test I will personally do will provide results in CFU- targeting a log reduction between samples. I will post photographs of the results on MDS. I will be taking a contaminated sample and filtering it to determine the log reduction.
Dilution is not feasible, as the incubation time is 24-30 hours and I wouldn't know what changed in the original sample during that time- invalidating the test.
To make a long story short, I will be pulling a 200ml (vs. 100ml standard) sample from a source which consistently tests ~1000mpn coliform and ~100mpn E. coli. Half will be tested as is, the other half will be filtered and then tested. I will be manually counting colonies using a CFU culture disc.

Please provide a Lifestraw. It would be great to test multiple systems.

Haven't done an MPN in a lab, we only used the more accurate CFU. Stock starting source is great, I thought you might be growing your own, diluting, and using a spec to estimate numbers. If you're doing CFU then I'm definitely in. PM me and you can use the lifestraw.

 

[Squaregrouper]

Haven't done an MPN in a lab, we only used the more accurate CFU. Stock starting source is great, I thought you might be growing your own, diluting, and using a spec to estimate numbers. If you're doing CFU then I'm definitely in. PM me and you can use the lifestraw.

I will be doing CFU, with photographs posted on MDS.
I PM'ed you my address.

 

[Squaregrouper]

I'm not sure why you distinguish between the two killing methods. If either is done properly then there would be no pathogens in the bottle.

I dropped some of the old water on an LB plate and nothing grew from either after 3 days but LB is not blood agar so I'd still boil the really old stuff. I mentioned particulate filtering because there were floaties in both but more so in the Nestle. No slime, no green, just small fine shiny flakes. Maybe plastic since that was the predominant taste. The Nestle bottles were very soft and squishy after 10 years.

Ozone is an oxidizer and leaves much less matter behind.
For Laypeople- UV is a bullet to the head and ozone is water on the wicked witch. Not exactly, but that is a good analogy.

We use Endo LES agar- incubated for 24 hours. I have never used blood agar.

 

[AntiGun]

Ozone is an oxidizer and leaves much less matter behind.
For Laypeople- UV is a bullet to the head and ozone is water on the wicked witch. Not exactly, but that is a good analogy.

We use Endo LES agar- incubated for 24 hours. I have never used blood agar.

If Nestle is treated with a lot of ozone and they use cheaper plastic then maybe that's why their old bottles had such a strong plastic taste with more particulates. Those are important physical aspects to keep in mind for long term storage. Maybe I should grab a few cases of different brands of water and put them away for years to see how they fare over time.

 

[Squaregrouper]

If Nestle is treated with a lot of ozone and they use cheaper plastic then maybe that's why their old bottles had such a strong plastic taste with more particulates. Those are important physical aspects to keep in mind for long term storage. Maybe I should grab a few cases of different brands of water and put them away for years to see how they fare over time.

Most bottled water labelled as "Purified Water" is municipal water, filtered with TFC reverse osmosis and ozonated. Our ozone contractor gets most of his business from Pepsi and Coca Cola (Aquafina/Desani).

 

[Blacksmith101]

If Nestle is treated with a lot of ozone and they use cheaper plastic then maybe that's why their old bottles had such a strong plastic taste with more particulates. Those are important physical aspects to keep in mind for long term storage. Maybe I should grab a few cases of different brands of water and put them away for years to see how they fare over time.

Cases of 24 and open one from each case for the annual water tasting shoot for the next 24 years. You could pour small samples for a panel of judges and after cleanse your pallet with an adult beverage.

 

[km04]

I will be testing a Sawyer Mini. Whatchagot?

I have the Sawyer mini also. And a Sawyer squeeze ( i think that's what it's called)

 

[Squaregrouper]

I will be testing a Sawyer Mini and a Lifestraw.
Results should be posted in two weeks when I'm back at work and results are in (I'm off- post surgery- until the 3rd)

 

[AntiGun]

Cases of 24 and open one from each case for the annual water tasting shoot for the next 24 years. You could pour small samples for a panel of judges and after cleanse your pallet with an adult beverage.

 

[km04]

I will be testing a Sawyer Mini and a Lifestraw.
Results should be posted in two weeks when I'm back at work and results are in (I'm off- post surgery- until the 3rd)

I am so looking forward to the results of this.