The Death of Surplus and it's consequences

[240 towles]

There wasn't anything about my posting that involved running anyone out of the C&R group. It's just that when someone comes into this group and, in so many words, says, "I don't like my C&R firearm, what should I do?" The answer is pretty clear-cut: sell it to someone who does like it, and get something you do like with the money.

By the same token, when someone essentially says, "I sold all my C&R firearms because I like modern plastic things better", the logical response is, OK, that's your choice. Whatever floats your boat ... but why go into the C&R area to say you don't like them? This is an area for people who DO like C&Rs.

If I went into a group for, say, edged weapons and told people that I don't like them and am unhappy with the Brand X bayonet that I bought, I'd expect people to tell me not to let the door hit me in the ass on my way out.



Fair enough ... but why go into a group of collectors and say that. What's the point? Likewise, if you want to chop up a 3-window coupe that's your right to do so, but going into an auto restorer's group and bragging about it is just being an ass. Why do that? If you really think it's getting people here all in a tizzy, you're wrong. Sorry. Nobody's head is going to explode. You just lose all credibility with people in the group for doing it.

Hmmm you did read the part where I said I like the gun right? Collectors are not the only ones who own the C+R section. Hot rodders can come in too. Kind of a moot point now, another member helped me find some cheap [ish] new made ammo. Think I might keep them.

 

[Machodoc]

Hmmm you did read the part where I said I like the gun right? Collectors are not the only ones who own the C+R section. Hot rodders can come in too. Kind of a moot point now, another member helped me find some cheap [ish] new made ammo. Think I might keep them.

Yep, and I also mentioned to you that I think that ammo availability and prices might slowly come down a bit. Both S&B and PPU still make the stuff, new, and it's still being imported. It's brass-cased, boxer-primed, and reloadable. If you plan on keeping them (and I think you should), you still might want to consider getting a basic press and set of dies for that caliber. It can still be challenging getting the right powder, primers, and bullets, but that stuff's around.

As for who "owns" a section, that's just a matter of common decency, not turf. A C&R license is a special license for collectors. Modifying a C&R firearm can take them out of the C&R category. Just like chopping up a car makes it into a hotrod, instead of a restoration, the two objectives are counter to each other. Someone can come in here and brag about ruining the collector value of a firearm, but what's the point? It's just being done to get people POed. Why do that?

 

[240 towles]

I have not started reloading yet, because of the availability and my stockpile of russian steel cased ammo. I pay roughly 25 cents a round for .223 steel cased. 50 cents per .308, etc. One day I may get into it. Not today.

 

[Bob A]

There aren't too many handguns out there that can do what a Tokarev can. I'd keep it for that reason alone. Ammo will return to a reasonable price eventually, because people will want to shoot their guns, and there's a lot of them out there.

Clandestine has his take on the C&R situation; I have no problem with that - it leaves more for the rest of us, at any rate. If the OP is inclined that way, sell them off.

It's a personal decision; you can't expect a group consensus on something like this. But the guns are cheap and plentiful now, so they won't bring much. I'd be inclined to just stick them back in the safe - they don't take up much room - and see how I felt about it in a couple years.

I've sold off a bunch of guns in my time, and there's only a couple or three that I don't regret having sold.

 

[Machodoc]

It's a personal decision; you can't expect a group consensus on something like this. But the guns are cheap and plentiful now, so they won't bring much. I'd be inclined to just stick them back in the safe - they don't take up much room - and see how I felt about it in a couple years.

^^^^ This. And, as noted by another collector, it's a buyer's market for these handguns now, largely because the ammo's hard to find and expensive right now. You either collect them for what they are, pay the high price of new ammo when it's available, or get creative about making/reloading the stuff. Those are the options. Just telling it like it is.

Also as noted, because this is a buyer's market, collectors are generally going to pay the highest prices for all-original guns in the best condition. Anyone who's ever been to a classic car auction has seen sellers in tears because the hotrod that they can show 30K in receipts for only sold for about half that. On the other hand, a good restoration usually holds its value much better.

 

[miben]

That 7.62 barrel could be re-bored to a 9mm. Are there any local gunsmiths who could do that? There are barrels somewhere but I don't know where to find one now. Sarco was an old source of them.

 

[240 towles]

Also as noted, because this is a buyer's market, collectors are generally going to pay the highest prices for all-original guns in the best condition. Anyone who's ever been to a classic car auction has seen sellers in tears because the hotrod that they can show 30K in receipts for only sold for about half that. On the other hand, a good restoration usually holds its value much better.

I understand the market, but I also understand the Kentucky Buyers/ traders market. Guns are alot more of a liquid commodity here and sell for more due to more buyers and easy transactions. With extra mags and some ammo would easily net 250 each.

 

[clandestine]

Glad you decided to keep it. Sounds like you really enjoy the gun.

 

[240 towles]

the 9mm barrels have gotten prohibitively expensive...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tokarev-9mm...version-9x19-tt-33-tt33-m57-kit-/151119737840

 

[clandestine]

Darn right. Ouch! I used to fit these all of the time for 9mm. The barrels and mags were pretty cheap.

 

[240 towles]

Glad you decided to keep it. Sounds like you really enjoy the gun.

I really do, they were my first real pistols. They work great with only a stovepipe every now and then. The round is so hot, it tends to blow holes through the steel plates I shoot [the 9mm and 45 won't penetrate]. Another member showed me where ammo can be found plentiful at around 18.00 a box, which is alot more reasonable than what I have been seeing.

 

[Machodoc]

I really do, they were my first real pistols. They work great with only a stovepipe every now and then. The round is so hot, it tends to blow holes through the steel plates I shoot [the 9mm and 45 won't penetrate]. Another member showed me where ammo can be found plentiful at around 18.00 a box, which is alot more reasonable than what I have been seeing.

You have to keep an eye out for deals, then be prepared to jump fast. Right now, this is about the best that I can find.

If those were your first real pistols, you'll end up regretting ever selling them. Hang onto them and save your brass. You never know what the future might bring. You may end up reloading them eventually, even though it seems unlikely now.

 

[240 towles]

I had a pair of Intratecs before the tokarevs, but I don't really consider them pistols. Thank you for your input Machodoc

 

[newq]

I just recently got my C&R license and outside of a few select historical arms will not buy a weapon that doesn't have a modern round. I enjoy shooting my arms. Few will ever get to be wall hangers. I have never kept a firearm NiB. It either sees use or it goes away. To date, The only firearms that I have not sold yet were 2 pistols, a Cougar 8040f and a Neos .22lr . Everything else has been disposable.

I guess it depends on the type of person you are. You sound like a shooter first then, a collector.

If this is the case Dump them NOW BEFORE you spend all the ammo. It will be more attractive with ammo.

If you are a collector first,then a shooter, return them to their original condition and frame them and mount them on your wall or make a desk standing display case.

It really depends on whether you want or need something more than those tokarevs. I am looking to buy one currently but unfortunately I have several wants ahead of them. For me this is one firearm I want for my desk display. I don't intend to shoot it more than a magazine or so. If you do decide to sell please contact me I could even do so without the ammo. We may be able to make a deal depending on what you want for one.

 

[dreadpirate]

The guns are part of your estate and your legacy - keep them I say! And make sure they stay in your family when you pass on.

 

[Biggfoot44]

I don't know if I've said it here , but I have definatly said this multiple times other places :

If your primary motivation for a particular firearm is to make use of cheap ammo , aproach the situation backwards. Buy a lifetime supply of the dirt cheap ammo First , before you buy the gun.

If you like (whatever) on purpose for its own merits, then it should be worth it to you to either load the ammo , or pay *normal made in USA retail* .

 

[Machodoc]

We all have different approaches. I'm interested in the history of the firearm, how interesting it is to me, and (usually) whether or not I think that I've gotten a decent deal on it. The last part is for my family, who will have to figure out what to do with them at some point in the future.

One of the last things that I worry about is the ammo. I just go ahead and order the dies and bullet molds for reloading that round, and either buy brass, start looking for brass, or figure out what more readily available brass can be converted to make ammo for the new firearm. I just figure all of that in as part of the cost of the firearm itself.

In really extreme circumstances, I can get a set of dies and/or molds custom-made for that particular caliber, but most stuff is available "off the rack" ... especially now that the panic is relaxing a bit.

In most cases, I can load ammo for what I have for fairly reasonable prices. I shoot nearly everything that I own, even if it's only once or twice, and I have more than enough stuff in the collection that I don't have to rely on one or two firearms for doing all my shooting. I can spread it around ... a lot. My problem, if it can be called that, is that I don't really have time to clean and shoot everything that I have.

For maintaining handgun proficiency, I tend to shoot my 9mm Sig and a .22LR Buckmark the most, but I also will take a couple of C$R guns to the range with me ... usually a CZ82, a .45 of some sort, and something that I just haven't shot in awhile.

For rifle shooting fun, the Sino-Soviet SKSs top my list, followed by some Mosin fireballs from an M44 or T53. Again, I'll usually bring along a Mauser, Hakim, or something else that strikes my fancy at the moment. In this way, I can shoot a lot of the stuff that I can still get ammo for fairly cheaply and easily, and still put a few mags' worth of more exotic rounds down range without breaking the bank.

 

[Biggfoot44]

Since the discussion has also worked around that direction , I have a broader view of "C&R" in several respects.

Rather than just *MilSurp currently available from distributors* . My tastes have always tended to used guns , with a preference to the era when they were better madeg had decent wood even on std grade guns. Get a few years older , and a lot of my stuff has magically become 50+ years old.

Mint condition origional is A goal , and I can apreceate it. To use the car analogy , if I came into a mint condition three window ( or split window , or whatever ) I would leave it that way instead of turning it into a modern street rod. But if it were already a decently done 'rod in the style of a previous generation I would celebrate it for what it is . If in bad shape , or major pieces missing , then hoo boy , a blank canvas to play with.

Likewise with firearms. A period correct quality Sporter of the different eras between the 1920's and 1960's is somthing to apreceate on there own merits. Likewise a S&W Hand Ejector with aftermarket refinish ? A shooter that I can afford to buy , and shoot extensivly with a clear conscience.

 

[Jimbob2.0]

This isnt a hugely hard caliber to reload for. Reloading comes close to the $$s of surplus.

Just bought a CZ52 myself and had the same emotional crisis.

 

[toolness1]

Be sure to keep all your fired commercial cases, don't leave them behind just because you don't have the reloading equipment now.

Also, getting started in reloading can be much cheaper than it looks if you buy used stuff. LOTS of people buy reloading equipment and end up not having the patience, time, etc. to actually do it. Then they offload their stuff for cheap. I got everything I needed to start out used, and it was a fraction of the cost of new stuff. You don't need a fancy Dillon setup to load some 7.62x25. I started with a cheap-o Lee single stage and it's loaded MANY thousands of rounds.

Hope you can keep the pistols and still enjoy shooting them. 7.62x25 is one of my favorites, and I got into it AFTER the surplus had already dried up. It's worth the extra effort to reload it, IMO.


Another option, I think the Chinese 9mm Tokarevs, you could swap the barrels with your 7.62x25, possibly with the new Zastava 9mm's too (the full size). So you might be able to sell one 'x25 and buy a 9mm, then use the 9mm barrel in both?

Might be something to look in to....