Need some range recommendations within an hour of western Howard County

[IMBLITZVT]

That is correct. When you do not agree with getting yelled at, and then mention something on here about how people can request a Form 990 from AGC to see its financials (wherein you receive a PM from the lvp of AGC asking to delete the post because anti-gunners might ask for the Form 990)....

Whats your goal here? You obviously were no longer interested in the AGC. Why not just move on? So now you are looking to cause problems for it? So what, you might be able to help destroy the largest range in MD? Seriously, what are you hoping to prove? Is the whole AGC now your enemy because one of 30 clubs is going to kick you out?

So, I have sent a request to the AGC for its Form 990, and will make it available to anybody on this board that is interested in seeing the financial position of AGC. ...So, I will be obtaining them for the sake of the members and I will continue to obtain them every year.

You know if you were around long enough to know something about the club, you would know that every month your club attends a trustee meeting. Financial info is given out every month to your club. All you would have needed to do as a member is ask your trustee. I am sure your trustee would be happy to let you look it over. If not, its not secret, you can meet with the AGC and take a look all you want.

As far as shooting goes, I mostly shoot shotgun, and the AGC sucks at this. However, a MDS member did point me to Peacemaker in West Virginia and its facilities seem to be incredible.

Hmm... well sorry you had to leave the state to find a facility that lives up to your expectation. I am happy you found one!

So, be happy that there are some fools like me out there that are willing to pay $150 a year to use a range a couple times a year, so the other more avid shooters have such a facility to use.

The AGC is pretty packed on the weekends but we are a big enough facility that we can handle the load. Sure those who want to only come a few times a year are always welcome. We don't care how often you come, just follow the rules and everything will go smoothly.

Once I have the Form 990, I am guessing I will be able to figure out just how many paying members there are at AGC.

You act like this is secret. We have spreadsheets telling exactly how many members each club has. We give this info to your trustees who can make it available for their members. There is nothing to hide... So if you want to make a lot of work for a bunch of guys volunteering their time, go ahead. We have had trouble with members before and we will have troubles with them after you. What are you getting out of it??? Just looking to waste a bunch of your own time to "pay us back" when you are only causing issues for people who did nothing to you? Its not like the RSO is going to be taking his personal time to deal with your BS?

You know, why not be a man about it and just move on? The longer you continue, the more PMs and emails I get about how childish and immature you are acting. That is from random MDS members, not AGC leadership. I have had my differences in the gun world with stores and ranges. Far worse things than getting yelled at. I sucked it up and moved on like a man rather than playing childish games that helped nothing and no one!

 

[fabsroman]

Whats your goal here? You obviously were no longer interested in the AGC. Why not just move on? So now you are looking to cause problems for it? So what, you might be able to help destroy the largest range in MD? Seriously, what are you hoping to prove? Is the whole AGC now your enemy because one of 30 clubs is going to kick you out?



You know if you were around long enough to know something about the club, you would know that every month your club attends a trustee meeting. Financial info is given out every month to your club. All you would have needed to do as a member is ask your trustee. I am sure your trustee would be happy to let you look it over. If not, its not secret, you can meet with the AGC and take a look all you want.



Hmm... well sorry you had to leave the state to find a facility that lives up to your expectation. I am happy you found one!



The AGC is pretty packed on the weekends but we are a big enough facility that we can handle the load. Sure those who want to only come a few times a year are always welcome. We don't care how often you come, just follow the rules and everything will go smoothly.



You act like this is secret. We have spreadsheets telling exactly how many members each club has. We give this info to your trustees who can make it available for their members. There is nothing to hide... So if you want to make a lot of work for a bunch of guys volunteering their time, go ahead. We have had trouble with members before and we will have troubles with them after you. What are you getting out of it??? Just looking to waste a bunch of your own time to "pay us back" when you are only causing issues for people who did nothing to you? Its not like the RSO is going to be taking his personal time to deal with your BS?

You know, why not be a man about it and just move on? The longer you continue, the more PMs and emails I get about how childish and immature you are acting. I have had my differences in the gun world with stores and ranges. Far worse things than getting yelled at. I sucked it up and moved on like a man rather than playing childish games that helped nothing and no one!

AGC should spend some money on a professional to moderate their "chat board" and represent them in public. Pretty much just an expense of marketing and public relations.

 

[fabsroman]

Whats your goal here? You obviously were no longer interested in the AGC. Why not just move on? So now you are looking to cause problems for it? So what, you might be able to help destroy the largest range in MD? Seriously, what are you hoping to prove? Is the whole AGC now your enemy because one of 30 clubs is going to kick you out?



You know if you were around long enough to know something about the club, you would know that every month your club attends a trustee meeting. Financial info is given out every month to your club. All you would have needed to do as a member is ask your trustee. I am sure your trustee would be happy to let you look it over. If not, its not secret, you can meet with the AGC and take a look all you want.



Hmm... well sorry you had to leave the state to find a facility that lives up to your expectation. I am happy you found one!



The AGC is pretty packed on the weekends but we are a big enough facility that we can handle the load. Sure those who want to only come a few times a year are always welcome. We don't care how often you come, just follow the rules and everything will go smoothly.



You act like this is secret. We have spreadsheets telling exactly how many members each club has. We give this info to your trustees who can make it available for their members. There is nothing to hide... So if you want to make a lot of work for a bunch of guys volunteering their time, go ahead. We have had trouble with members before and we will have troubles with them after you. What are you getting out of it??? Just looking to waste a bunch of your own time to "pay us back" when you are only causing issues for people who did nothing to you? Its not like the RSO is going to be taking his personal time to deal with your BS?

You know, why not be a man about it and just move on? The longer you continue, the more PMs and emails I get about how childish and immature you are acting. That is from random MDS members, not AGC leadership. I have had my differences in the gun world with stores and ranges. Far worse things than getting yelled at. I sucked it up and moved on like a man rather than playing childish games that helped nothing and no one!

As far as the AGC being pretty packed on the weekends, you act like I don't live close enough to drive by the place on a regular basis. Willing to bet that if we discount the really crappy weekends during the winter, weekends where it rains, etc., the average range attendance per member would be pretty low.

Also, there is a pretty decent shotgun range within about 30 minutes of me. It is called PG Trap & Skeet, where the Greenbelt Gun Club holds its monthly meetings. It is just that Peacemaker has so much to offer, that I could make en entire day out of it versus just going to AGC to punch paper or shoot trap, both of which I consider to be boring. Main reason to join AGC was just to sight in the rifles and make sure the rifles and pistols actually function since I can no longer legally do that on the farm I hunt on in western Howard County.

 

[IMBLITZVT]

AGC should spend some money on a professional to moderate their "chat board" and represent them in public. Pretty much just an expense of marketing and public relations.

We are not in the AGC forum, I am not a moderator here and I am not representing the AGC and hold no AGC office. This is coming from an AGC and MDS member, nothing more. However I will pass on your suggestion about the AGC section. I am volunteer, no skin off my back if they want to replace me. I certainly will not go around crying about it requesting form 990s!

 

[safecracker]

You know, why not be a man about it and just move on?

Agreed. It's time to put on the big boy pants and move on. There is NOTHING to be gained by being vindictive - the local 2A community has enough ******** on it's plate.

 

[fabsroman]

We are not in the AGC forum, I am not a moderator here and I am not representing the AGC and hold no AGC office. This is coming from an AGC and MDS member, nothing more. However I will pass on your suggestion about the AGC section. I am volunteer, no skin off my back if they want to replace me. I certainly will not go around crying about it requesting form 990s!

That is correct, we are not in the AGC forum where you have the power to delete what you see fit, like the vast majority of the thread I started in that forum and the complaints from other members that followed, or your comments.

What is the "Industry Provider" for by your screen name? Hey now, nothing I post on here reflects on my business, it is all "personal".

What you and some others fail to realize, is that when you are associated with a business/entity, what you say and do is a reflection on that entity. AGC has you doing something for it as an agent of it. What you write on this board is a reflection on AGC, which has selected you to represent it on this board. Just because you are not in the AGC Forum, does not mean what you write is not a reflection on AGC, especially when it is an AGC matter.

 

[fabsroman]

Agreed. It's time to put on the big boy pants and move on. There is NOTHING to be gained by being vindictive - the local 2A community has enough ******** on it's plate.

I know, I should take one for the team. Maybe it is time for some to be vocal so the 2A community can see what it is doing wrong and why people like Bolts Rock and others choose Alabama, PA, WV, Virginia, etc. instead of sticking around here.

Of course, it "looks" better to sweep everything under the rug, or better yet, put our heads in the sand to any issues.

Bullet Proof pants are needed in this state to try and address the 2A issues we have in this state.

Edit to add: Soon, we shall find out how Kolbe comes down.

 

[IMBLITZVT]

Agreed. It's time to put on the big boy pants and move on. There is NOTHING to be gained by being vindictive - the local 2A community has enough ******** on it's plate.

See there is another and I have no connection with SafeCracker.

That is correct, we are not in the AGC forum where you have the power to delete what you see fit, like the vast majority of the thread I started in that forum and the complaints from other members that followed, or your comments.

Look man, I didn't do anything to you, its my job to moderate the best I can while trying to keep things fair for the AGC. I did what I thought was appropriate. I let the thread go on while it seemed like you might actually have an issue you wanted to work out. When it went down hill I dumped it. Any other mod would have killed that thread the first night. As was pretty much confirmed when a MDS mod reviewed my actions. I probably let it go on to long...? Are we enemies now because I had to do it? At least not on my end... it was not personal.

What is the "Industry Provider" for by your screen name? Hey now, nothing I post on here reflects on my business, it is all "personal".

I helped the AGC get the MDS forum. I wanted to support MDS and the AGC. When you are a Moderator and in charge of a forum you get the IP thing. However I was hear long before the AGC forum and would be here if it got taken down. When moderating the AGC forum, I am acting in somewhat an official capacity doing volunteer work. Not one penny is coming my way for my trouble. When I am outside the forum, its just me. Or do you think the AGC talks nothing but MGs on the NFA forum? The AGC is welcome to put that task on anyone else as they see fit, with no hard feeling on my end. It would keep me from having to deal with BS like this.

What you and some others fail to realize, is that when you are associated with a business/entity, what you say and do is a reflection on that entity. AGC has you doing something for it as an agent of it. What you write on this board is a reflection on AGC, which has selected you to represent it on this board. Just because you are not in the AGC Forum, does not mean what you write is not a reflection on AGC, especially when it is an AGC matter.

By that logic, you represent the AGC, at least for a little longer! Again man, what did I do to you? Kill your out of control thread? Or do you think I am talking for the AGC when I am talking about my M16 or other things in the FA forum or politics in the Watercooler? Its a hobby for me, this is not my profession. I am not an employee of the AGC and I don't own it and I have nothing at risk in the AGC other than my $150 a year range badge, just like you. So whats the goal now? You want to see my Form 990s?

 

[fabsroman]

See there is another and I have no connection with SafeCracker.



Look man, I didn't do anything to you, its my job to moderate the best I can while trying to keep things fair for the AGC. I did what I thought was appropriate. I let the thread go on while it seemed like you might actually have an issue you wanted to work out. When it went down hill I dumped it. Any other mod would have killed that thread the first night. As was pretty much confirmed when a MDS mod reviewed my actions. I probably let it go on to long...? Are we enemies now because I had to do it? At least not on my end... it was not personal.



I helped the AGC get the MDS forum. I wanted to support MDS and the AGC. When you are a Moderator and in charge of a forum you get the IP thing. However I was hear long before the AGC forum and would be here if it got taken down. When moderating the AGC forum, I am acting in somewhat an official capacity doing volunteer work. Not one penny is coming my way for my trouble. When I am outside the forum, its just me. Or do you think the AGC talks nothing but MGs on the NFA forum? The AGC is welcome to put that task on anyone else as they see fit, with no hard feeling on my end. It would keep me from having to deal with BS like this.



By that logic, you represent the AGC, at least for a little longer! Again man, what did I do to you? Kill your out of control thread? Or do you think I am talking for the AGC when I am talking about my M16 or other things in the FA forum or politics in the Watercooler? Its a hobby for me, this is not my profession. I am not an employee of the AGC and I don't own it and I have nothing at risk in the AGC other than my $150 a year range badge, just like you. So whats the goal now? You want to see my Form 990s?

You deleted your posts that I had a significant issue with in the forum you had control over. So, we can agree to disagree that you never did anything to me.

Also, keep in mind that I am merely continuing to respond to your posts and between the two of us we continue to throw gas on the fire. So, if you had never responded, I never would have written again. Also, coming out and making it public knowledge that Greenbelt Gun Club had suspended me, do you think that was spectacular form on your part, the one that is taking the "high road".

Please, feel free not to respond any more and we can end this back and forth. Take the high road that you are preaching.

You could not stop in that thread you continued to feed until you decided to delete the vast majority of it, at the request of somebody else above you. Thing is, you are going to need a different mods approval to have stuff deleted in this thread.

 

[mike_in_md]

Fabs, Good luck to the club/range that takes you.

 

[fabsroman]

Fabs, Good luck to the club/range that takes you.

Good luck to AGC too.

Anybody remember the thread about a MDS Shooters get together at AGC and a grill back in 2014?

http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=158405&highlight=AGC+grill

Some salient quotes:

There were extenuating, behind-the-scene circumstances necessitating the cancellation. None of which were SNI's fault. She tried hard to put the meetup together, but it just couldn't be done.

The gist of what I have heard was that it was ACG's BOD that came up with some pretty stiff demands for what was considered an informal meet up. Paid RSO's, scheduling of lanes, club sponsorship of the event and other demands that would of taken too much time and effort for a simple get together.

From SNI:

It turned into one of those "if you give a moose a muffin" kinda things...

Sorry for starting something I wasn't willing to finish.. Learned a lot though.

I can only guess what the issue was. Good amount of behind the scenes though. Yep, good luck to AGC indeed.

 

[justeric]

IMBLITZVT, I think fabsroman represents a sizable number of AGC members. I for one had a similar incident where I was yelled/cussed at by an RSO for not following a direction. I did not follow the direction because I did not know it was being given to me. I yelled back that he cannot yell at patrons like that. The RSO’s direction was to move to another spot on the line, nothing even close to be worth cussing someone out over. I complained about the issue to the AGC and to my club. My club informed me that I had to sit in front of a club board to determine if my range pass was going to be revoked. Mind you, the RSO didn’t even log the event. After fighting with my club for a few weeks, I tendered my resignation from the club. Ironically, another RSO, that I was friends with joined me to his club. That was a real eye opener for me on the politics between the clubs and the AGC with us shooters taking the brunt of their frustration. I felt completely justified in yelling back at the RSO and totally unfairly persecuted by my club. Sure that is my side of the story but I suspect that story comes up again and again. I didn’t bring my incident to the forum since the club I was with does some good things and I didn’t want to tarnish their reputation. Maybe the officers but not the club. That didn’t keep the club from fabricating a story in their news letter, which if it used my name would have made them liable for a civil suit.

The take away for you and the AGC from fabsroman’s comments. Demand a higher level professionalism from you RSO staff. Most of the RSO’s are hard working good intentioned friendly mannered assets to AGC. The one that abused me on the range is still working there and yelling at people. He is a bad apple that should be retrained instead of expecting the customers to adjust to his abusive ways.

Lastly, I don’t think it was fair for you to jump in on fabsroman the way you did. I think you attacked him with your posts and that has escalated into a shouting match. I think his points were well taken. As members, we are grown up enough to be able to determine sour milk from real concerns. In fact, I think your responses have been more inflammatory than his.

 

[justeric]

Hasn't this gone on long enough? How frail can one be to cause such acrimony over a little scolding? Still trying to get your pound of flesh? Didn't you exact enough pain in two other threads(that eventually got locked), only to continue the gripe to a third?

I believe that IMBLITZVT is the one that is running the show now. Fabs is just responding to IMBLITZVT's posts. Point the finger at the right person.

 

[justeric]

Fabs, Good luck to the club/range that takes you.

OK, I'll call the foul for fabs. Fabs merely explained what happened from his perspective. There is no reason for the message "range that takes you". As if he is the problem. Let's not take it to personal attacks.

 

[PapiBarcelona]

I don't get the "RSO" thing for trap. Is the word we are looking for here called a Trapper? Pressing the button and recording the score?

I've been to clubs that have trappers, usually kids or some other club involved type people who volunteer their time to do that, but never any "Safety" people. All the Sporting Clay courses and clubs I've shot North and East of Baltimore if you asked where the Chief Range Officer is, they'd just gawk at you.

It's really not needed IMO, at least up "this way." The clientele that gets involved with Sporting Clays usually can "police" their own, never have I seen any real bad safety incidents. Couple trap clubs I've been to don't have safety people either.

I wouldn't shoot at a place if it was someone's job to "patrol" a 1/2 mile, 12 station sporting clay course with a bull horn and a neon green traffic vest.

 

[fabsroman]

Hasn't this gone on long enough? How frail can one be to cause such acrimony over a little scolding? Still trying to get your pound of flesh? Didn't you exact enough pain in two other threads(that eventually got locked), only to continue the gripe to a third?

No, one was massively deleted and then locked after IMBL posted his PC response after posting a wave of inflammatory responses that he deleted. So, the massively deleted one does not count.

I made a comment in another thread of AGC's where people were talking about a $3.2 million clubhouse, range fees being increased to $200 a year, and there was at least one person asking for a financial statement and/or comparison between 2014 and 2013. I mentioned that the financials could be obtained by requesting a Form 990 from the range, and was then PM'ed in a courteous manner by an AGC BOD member to delete my reference to the Form 990, which I eventually did.

Lots of BS going on behind the scenes all over the place over me complaining about being yelled at by an RSO on Father's Day in front of my kids. Yeah, I did not follow the proper course of conduct with my complaint. However, the amount of rules, meetings, etc. regarding this matter has been incredible. When I met with Greenbelt Gun Club, there was no mention of my membership being suspended and me expelled from the club, and thereby having my AGC range badge taken away. However, after making the Form 990 comment, I then receive an e-mail from the Greenbelt Gun Club president a day or two later notifying me that my membership is suspended and going to be revoked unless I appear at another meeting.

 

[mike_in_md]

Good luck to AGC too.

Anybody remember the thread about a MDS Shooters get together at AGC and a grill back in 2014?

http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=158405&highlight=AGC+grill

Some salient quotes:

There were extenuating, behind-the-scene circumstances necessitating the cancellation. None of which were SNI's fault. She tried hard to put the meetup together, but it just couldn't be done.

The gist of what I have heard was that it was ACG's BOD that came up with some pretty stiff demands for what was considered an informal meet up. Paid RSO's, scheduling of lanes, club sponsorship of the event and other demands that would of taken too much time and effort for a simple get together.

From SNI:

It turned into one of those "if you give a moose a muffin" kinda things...

Sorry for starting something I wasn't willing to finish.. Learned a lot though.

I can only guess what the issue was. Good amount of behind the scenes though. Yep, good luck to AGC indeed.

There shouldn't have been a problem if each non member has a member as a sponsor and shoots on the sponsors (one) firing lane under the members supervision while they do not shoot and are watching them. That is within the rules.

It didn't seem to me that the event was communicated and organized well on the MDS forum, leaving the impression that a club would have to sponsor it, which in that case the club would likely have to find member volunteers to supervise each non member.

As far as the grill goes...I am not sure what kind of back door politics goes on, but you would think bribing folks in charge with a couple of hotdogs would fix that problem.

 

[fabsroman]

I don't get the "RSO" thing for trap. Is the word we are looking for here called a Trapper? Pressing the button and recording the score?

I've been to clubs that have trappers, usually kids or some other club involved type people who volunteer their time to do that, but never any "Safety" people. All the Sporting Clay courses and clubs I've shot North and East of Baltimore if you asked where the Chief Range Officer is, they'd just gawk at you.

It's really not needed IMO, at least up "this way." The clientele that gets involved with Sporting Clays usually can "police" their own, never have I seen any real bad safety incidents. Couple trap clubs I've been to don't have safety people either.

I wouldn't shoot at a place if it was someone's job to "patrol" a 1/2 mile, 12 station sporting clay course with a bull horn and a neon green traffic vest.

Yeah, the RSO is what we used to call a trapper back in the old days, before the invention of electronic systems to throw the birds. When I went to PG Trap & Skeet for my meeting with Greenbelt Gun Club over this entire debacle, I took a couple shotguns with me. Due to traffic, I could not get there early enough to shoot sporting clays and still attend the meeting, so I shot 3 rounds of trap instead. What a difference. You put your pre-bought ticket in a slot by the fence and the employees walk up and down the range and collect them. As I was getting ready to shoot, another two guys came up to the field and all three of us shot together without any employee from the range watching over us like we are some children. The guy to my left kept closing the action on his pump when we were changing stations, but he kept it pointed straight up so I saw no reason to say anything to him. It was a pleasant experience and reminded me what shooting trap is really like.

I wonder what AGC's internal controls are regarding all the cash that the RSO has on his person at the trap range. How do they ensure that all that cash makes it back to AGC coffers? I thoroughly understand why PG Trap & Skeet uses the ticket system.

 

[fabsroman]

There shouldn't have been a problem if each non member has a member as a sponsor and shoots on the sponsors (one) firing lane under the members supervision while they do not shoot and are watching them. That is within the rules.

It didn't seem to me that the event was communicated and organized well on the MDS forum, leaving the impression that a club would have to sponsor it, which in that case the club would likely have to find member volunteers to supervise each non member.

As far as the grill goes...I am not sure what kind of back door politics goes on, but you would think bribing folks in charge with a couple of hotdogs would fix that problem.

Probably need a hamburger at the minimum, and possibly a pork chop or steak. lol

Your guess is as good as mine why that shoot did not happen at AGC a year ago.

 

[SKIP]

Can we call a Cease Fire and stand down and use PM to resolve your differences. Request the thread be closed.