Need some range recommendations within an hour of western Howard County

[mike_in_md]

Hopefully I clearly communicated . Didnt know I had a problem with that. Never heard that before.

I only read the thread that fabs quoted that do not have all the background. Since I wasn't involved do not know all the work you did. It seems to me that clubs didn't need to be involved. I know my club wasn't involved.

By the way, we have new grills now. We used the new one on the pistol range twice...and didn't get in trouble.

 

[fabsroman]

I only read the thread that fabs quoted that do not have all the background. Since I wasn't involved do not know all the work you did. It seems to me that clubs didn't need to be involved. I know my club wasn't involved.

By the way, we have new grills now. We used the new one on the pistol range twice...and didn't get in trouble.

Has the policies and procedures manual been updated to address the new grills, or is that something for range rules or bylaws? lol

 

[mike_in_md]

Has the policies and procedures manual been updated to address the new grills, or is that something for range rules or bylaws? lol

I think there is an unwritten rule that you have to cook a few hotdogs for the RSO...at least were not taking any chances.

 

[mike_in_md]

That don't sound that bad Fabs. I thought maybe there was a big argument between you and the RSO, but it seems you just went home with embarrassment in front of your kids in your eyes, which I admit isn't pleasant. Also, you disagreed with a range rule and were hoping that could be addressed.

I am different than you, but this is how I would have handled it. I would have told my kids that the range officer thought there was a rule broken that you disagreed with and were going to try to get resolved and that he had to shout to get your attention because everyone has hearing protection.

Now, in the matter of the range rule. I do not have an O/U shotgun, but I would think that if you are standing up then the muzzle of the broke open shotgun would be pointed down. If you bend over, then the shotgun muzzle is sweeping the line.

I think what got out of control is that you were angry and your post in the AGC forum reflected that. Your meeting with your gun club happened after all the anger built up and was posted on the forum. It seems to me that all that was needed was your club to explain their position on the range rule after you explained your side. If your club accused you of yelling at the RSO, I would have gotten a statement from the RSO that that didn't happen.

This really seems to be more drama than it should be. If your club thinks that your a hot head that could be a different issue. Now is a good time to clear this stuff up, make amends, and not only save the reputation of the AGC, but for yourself as well.

 

[fabsroman]

That don't sound that bad Fabs. I thought maybe there was a big argument between you and the RSO, but it seems you just went home with embarrassment in front of your kids in your eyes, which I admit isn't pleasant. Also, you disagreed with a range rule and were hoping that could be addressed.

I am different than you, but this is how I would have handled it. I would have told my kids that the range officer thought there was a rule broken that you disagreed with and were going to try to get resolved and that he had to shout to get your attention because everyone has hearing protection.

Now, in the matter of the range rule. I do not have an O/U shotgun, but I would think that if you are standing up then the muzzle of the broke open shotgun would be pointed down. If you bend over, then the shotgun muzzle is sweeping the line.

I think what got out of control is that you were angry and your post AGC forum reflected that. Your meeting with your gun club happened after all the anger built up and was posted on the forum. It seems to me that all that was needed was your club to explain their position on the range rule after you explained your side. If your club accused you of yelling at the RSO, I would have gotten a statement from the RSO that that didn't happen.

This really seems to be more drama than it should be. If your club thinks that your a hot head that could be a different issue. Now is a good time to clear this stuff up, make amends, and not only save the reputation of the AGC, but for yourself as well.

Yep, the RSO was not in my face yelling. Still, the only time I have been yelled at and I have done my fair share of shooting.

The accusation that I yelled at and cussed out the RSO is really what got this all started again. When the president of GGC asked me to meet with him, I even told him that there really was no resolution to this matter and had no idea what meeting with them would resolve. Then the bomb was dropped on me at the meeting that I yelled at and cussed at the RSO.

Do you really think I want to be a member of GGC anymore? What about shooting at AGC again?

Even if somebody gets in your face and cusses you out up and down, is there really anything more than embarrassment from the incident? Nope. Just because you were cussed out and yelled at does not cause any physical damage, it merely means that you were not treated with respect, unless that is your sort of thing and you respect it.

You also happen to be a VP of a club associated with AGC, have a link to the club in your signature, and have AGC linked in your signature, so there might be some bias toward saving the reputation of AGC.

I don't know about you, but the number of people that raise their voice to me is few and far between. Meanwhile, the same applies for me toward other people.

I think it is pretty simple. AGC's policy of RSO's raising their voices, shouting, etc. does not fit how some people want to be treated. That is all fine and good, but those people should know upon signing up that it is the MO for RSOs at AGC to raise their voices, scream, etc. and that it is tolerated by management. Don't get me wrong, I can understand the shouting and yelling when something is really life threatening. I shouted at my brother in-law a couple years ago when it looked like he was about to saw off his forearm with a circular saw. There are times and places for it. I just disagree with its use in the circumstance at issue.

 

[IMBLITZVT]

Yep, waves of posts of inflammatory posts. It was merely the second to last one that was infuriating and well beyond inflammatory.

Thats just crap. Or should I just be thanking you for taking it easy when writing the AGC about me? My first few posts were mostly informative trying to get you to do the right thing. Hell at first I thought you probably were actually treated poorly. Later I saw it for what it was...

I care how many members the AGC has because it is a barometer to how well the 2nd Amendment is doing in Maryland.

Yeah you are requesting all this info for your barometer, not to be a PITA.... right. Why not just ask how many members we have? And I don't think a 990 is going to tell you how many members we have anyway. Its going to tell you how much we made, membership and other income grouped. However please don't treat us like we are stupid and you really care how many members a club you are leaving has!

Likewise, your very first post to my complaint in the AGC forum should have been, "Thanks for posting about the complaint. I will make sure that this reaches the correct person to address it." and then you should have closed the thread. You eventually got there, but a day late and a dollar short.

Maybe you mistook my role for a customer service employee who will hold your precious hand. My job is to moderate the forum, nothing more. I am not required to help you or reply to your thread or do anything other than moderate as I see fit. I was trying to help by providing the proper way for you to handle your complaint but since you had no interest in handling it appropriately it made no difference and then I did my job and moderated you. I bet you are the type that yells at a Chick-fil-a cashier for the owners stance on political issues... The AGC has a place and people to file a complaint. I am 100% sure its not me or our MDS forum!

...Supposedly, the muzzle on my shotgun swept somebody to the left of me, but I would argue that point...My kids were asking on the drive home why he yelled at me.

And there you have it! You screwed up and got yelled at. Instead of explaining to your kids that even you can make a mistake you got your feeling hurt and wanted to blast it out on the internet making it my problem. Thats the bottom line of this whole issue.

I am sick of reading all this BS and thats all this is... BS because you got embarrassed... but you can't escape its because you screwed up and thats why your club is not backing you! Trust me Clubs have come down hard on RSOs before when their members are treated poorly!

So how about this.... I found the range badge sales for the AGC for the last several years. Certainly not because you deserve an answer but to show there is nothing to hide:

2014: $384425
2013: $373624
2012: $240634

So assuming all full year badges at $150, in 2015, we had a minimum of 2563 members! We sell half year badges, junior and family badges below that $150. So I would say my number of 2600+ was spot on! Now, is that good enough for you? I am betting your not running off the cancel the request for the 990s now are you... because we both know it had nothing to do with that. I look forward to hear the next round of BS...

 

[SKIP]

Still Going

 

[Erno86]

For some people that wear ear protection...talk louder than normal, so they can hear themselves talk.

Fabs - I'm assuming --- in relation to the range rule violation of somebody being muzzle swept by you...that the witnesses involved saw you muzzle sweeping somebody, but the RSO did not witness the infraction, but actually responded to you from other member complaints about you're infraction.

Am I correct on this assumption?

 

[MEGARMS]

Ever since this incident occurred, I have been paying especially close attention to muzzles on break action shotguns, both at the AGC and other clubs. One thing is for certain, Fabs did not do anything that was out of the ordinary or that does not occur multiple times on a daily basis at all clubs, including the AGC. In fact, it occurs nearly 50% of the time when shooters turn to walk from station 5 to station 1 (the other 50% of the time the barrels are pointed at the ground).

A few weeks ago, I pointed my observation out as a VERY seasoned shooter was returning from the line with his open shotgun barrel pointing right at my face as I sat on the bench(not sweeping me mind you, pointed at my face for the entire 11 yard walk). This did not bother me a bit, but what did concern me is that I was told that the RSO's are only concerned with this issue when shooters are on the firing line because that is the only place where a shotgun is to be loaded and considered dangerous. The same person said that sweeping with an open shotgun IS tolerated when not on the firing line. Well, my feeling is that you can't have it both ways, in fact it sounded as if it was something that was made up after the fact to support this very incident report.

Many break action shotguns (depending on their weight distribution) do not naturally point themselves at the ground when being carried open and at your side. That being said, I have a hard time with it being a range violation when a shooter is on the firing line or anywhere at all. There are guys that carry these things (albeit improperly) on their shoulder with the barrels pointing straight out behind them. Now they are more likely to hit someone in the face then to shoot them in the face, but why is it tolerated off the line if it isn't on the line?

As far as I am concerned, break action shotguns are a very different animal. It is clear and obvious to everyone when it is open and I highly doubt there has ever been an accidental discharge in the history of open shotguns.

None of this has anything to do with the behavior of the RSO or of Fabs. I wasn't there and was not a witness, so I can only comment on the said rule violation itself. In my opinion it was bogus and is a training issue. If there was no range violation recorded, then there would not have been an incident at all.

 

[IMBLITZVT]

Ever since this incident occurred, I have been paying especially close attention to muzzles on break action shotguns, both at the AGC and other clubs. One thing is for certain, Fabs did not do anything that was out of the ordinary or that does not occur multiple times on a daily basis at all clubs, including the AGC. In fact, it occurs nearly 50% of the time when shooters turn to walk from station 5 to station 1 (the other 50% of the time the barrels are pointed at the ground).......
None of this has anything to do with the behavior of the RSO or of Fabs. I wasn't there and was not a witness, so I can only comment on the said rule violation itself. In my opinion it was bogus and is a training issue. If there was no range violation recorded, then there would not have been an incident at all.

To start, I see people speeding all the time. Would you tell a cop that you should not get a ticket because you see others speeding all the time too? Is the judge going to let you off because you were the unlucky one that go caught?

As in everything, there is a grey area. You point the gun down, well it can still be aimed at someones feet... The RSO will not likely say anything. You are carrying muzzle up and dips a bit, not likely going to get you called. However If you are carrying it down, then bend over and in so doing point your muzzle directly down the line of shooters, parallel with the ground... Its going to get you called every time on the firing line. I don't care what gun or where. You meaningfully or accidentally (I think this case) manage to point your gun down the firing line at any time... you will get called at the AGC. I think thats much closer to what happened here! Its a clear violation of first rule of gun safety! The AGC is very strict on gun safety. The AGC even has a rule against having your case pointed down the firing line to keep people from casing their guns and pointing down the firing line. This is a big deal at the AGC, we take the extra effort to make sure that no guns on the firing line ever get pointed at a person. If they do you can expect to be called EVERY time! I have seen people walk from one station to the next with a round in the chamber when shooting trap. It happens and so if you point your gun at anyone on the firing line, expect the RSO to be on you! Hell I would be yelling at you too if you point any gun at me while I am on the firing line!

Now when the gun is checked to be cleared and moved off the firing line... well things of course lighten up a bit. There is an expectation here that no gun would ever be loaded. That is not the case on the firing line. However you still are not allowed to point a gun at anyone. However you are not likely going to have a RSO yelling at you to immediately correct your action. Its a different level of concern.

You may not agree but thats the way it is. I think Empty chamber indicators is over the top personally but they require them at the AGC... so I respect that and use them. The AGC just has no grey area when the gun might be loaded and its pointing at other people on the firing line. Having been on an unregulated range before, while sometimes I think the AGC might take it a bit far, but I would rather have that then someone pointing a loading gun at me because he feels his safety being on makes that ok.

Either way, and on any rule that you don't agree with there is a way to address this at the AGC. You can get rules changed. There use to be a rule against MGs and shooting anything but paper. Now we shoot MGs at steel targets!

 

[vector03]

Some of the details.

I was moving from station 4 to station 5 with the o/u cracked open. I bent down to pick up a spent shell that I failed to catch during the round. Supposedly, the muzzle on my shotgun swept somebody to the left of me, but I would argue that point.

The RSO yelled out to me, "FABS, MUZZLE DOWN RANGE".

The action was open on the O/U shotgun and you bent down to pick something up. In doing so, the muzzle swung to the left which swept the line.

With your body obscuring the view of the RSO , it appeared to the RSO to be an O/U sweeping the line....my guess is he couldn't see if the action was open.


I'm not touching the rest of this conversation with a 10ft pole. I just wanted to point out what I thought may have happened.

 

[mike_in_md]

When I shoot trap with guest I always recommend to them don't pick up your brass until after the match is over because of the higher potential for muzzle sweeping. I also recommend that if they do not have a trap ammo belt to put the ammo in their pockets instead of loading from the ground for that same reason.

I know people hate more rules, but when you see the same problems all the time, making a rule that addresses the root cause of a more serious rule violation is sometimes beneficial in my opinion. So maybe it would be a good idea to include a rule to not load from the ground or picking up spent shells until everyone leaves the firing line as a trap range rule and make it a class 1 rule violation (reminder of the range rule). When RSO's see these violations it would be great that instead of just quoting the range rule violation that they could also make sure that the person that violated the rule knows "why" it is a rule to begin with.