Shotshell loading help with hull identification

[BUFF7MM]

Holy cow, this Shotshell ID stuff is making my head spin. I've been picking up empty 12 gauge hulls as I see them at the range but it seems that everyone I try to ID from pictures in the Lyman shotshell reloading book isn't in there. I've read that anything marked buckshot should be tossed. I know I'm leaving a bunch of info out but im not sure what to add.
I've been loading new Cheddite 2 3/4 high brass plastic base wad, pre primed with Cheddite primers, WAA12 wads, various Clays powder loads and 1 1/8 #4 lead shot. These have been working in my semiauto, after I found a load that would cycle the action, but these will eventually wear out and I'm trying to scrounge up a supply of hulls I can work with. I'm not really looking for any hunting loads just shooting loads.

 

[byf43]

It's been a lonnnnnnnnnnng time since I've sorted shotshells.

"I" have never heard that you can't load/must 'toss' buckshot empties.


The OLD Winchester AA hulls (at one time) were "the standard" that all others were trying to live up to.

They were "Compression Formed" and loaded easily, and lasted a very long time.

The Peters "Blue Magic" hulls were exactly the same, but, you could load them a lot more times, and held their crimp for a lot longer time. Sadly, they're obsolete and are as rare as snake "D Cup" bras.
(I just happen to have quite a stash of once-fired Blue Magic hulls put away.)

Remington "Gun Club" and "STS Premier" are also the same as the old Win AA hulls, and load the same.

"Mohawk" (black hulls) load the same as Win AA hulls, although, they don't hold a crimp as well, for as long as the AA and Blue Magic, do.

I'm not too fond of Federal hulls. I've found that the "brass" is just brass-plated steel.


Ever since one of the Trap Shooters at St. Charles Sportsman's Club provided me with his 'pet' load, and I saw how it shoots, I've only loaded this for 'regular' shooting and casual Trap shooting.

18 grains of Alliant (formerly Hercules) Red Dot.
Winchester AA (or one of the substitute hulls listed above)
CCI 209 or Winchester shotshell primer
Claybuster (orange) wad (replacement wad for WAA12 wad)
1-1/8 oz of shot.

This is all loaded on an OLD (it's at least 50 years old) MEC 600 Jr. (pre MK-V).

 

[BUFF7MM]

Ok byf43 here's part of my problem, these two shells have plastic base wads and I can't find them in my book, can they be loaded the same? And for which hull should I use data from the Hodgdon site for them?

 

[Redcobra]

There are tapered hulls and non tapered hulls and they take different wads. For instance, you should not use the same wad in an AA hull and a Federal hull.
Gun club hulls are everywhere. STS and Nitro load the same.
Win AAs are much harder to find and Win Super Targets load the same but don't last long.
Win doesn't load the same as Rems. Go to Loch Raven Skeet and Trap and look in the bins for GCs.
I get 8-10 reloads out of each Rem hull.GCs, STS and Nitro. The black rems are 6-point crimps, you want the 8 points.
Pick a hull and stick with it.
For an education, go to shotgunworld.com and read the reloading forum.
There is even a section on loading eurotrash hulls such as cheddite and Rio.

Are you loading for clay games. What loader are you using. I reload about 5000 hulls a year on a MEC 9000. Happy to help if I can.

 

[byf43]

Those look like the "New" AA cases.

You have to look inside of the hulls, and see the "base wad".

Winchester's equipment for producing the "old" AA cases just simply wore out, and they re-tooled with "new and so-called improved" machinery, and it is NOTHING like the old cases, except for the AA name.

 

[BUFF7MM]

There are tapered hulls and non tapered hulls and they take different wads. For instance, you should not use the same wad in an AA hull and a Federal hull.
Gun club hulls are everywhere. STS and Nitro load the same.
Win AAs are much harder to find and Win Super Targets load the same but don't last long.
Win doesn't load the same as Rems.
Pick a hull and stick with it.
For an education, go to shotgunworld.com and read the reloading forum.

Just about every Google search I do it pops up first, I'm thinking that's why my head is spinning.
Maybe I'm thinking into it to mush and I'm over killing it.

 

[byf43]

There are tapered hulls and non tapered hulls and they take different wads. For instance, you should not use the same wad in an AA hull and a Federal hull.
Gun club hulls are everywhere. STS and Nitro load the same.
Win AAs are much harder to find and Win Super Targets load the same but don't last long.
Win doesn't load the same as Rems.
Pick a hull and stick with it.
For an education, go to shotgunworld.com and read the reloading forum.

I've loaded thousands of Gun Club and STS Premier hulls, exactly the same (same data as listed above) as the OLD Win AA cases.


shotgunworld.com is a great site. There are some great guys over there, and are quite knowledgeable.

I haven't been over there in a long time.

 

[Uncle Duke]

BYF43 and Buff7mm, following this thread with interest.

43's mentioned load rings a bell as being identical to mine, but I likewise haven't pulled a handle on a shot shell press in 20 years.

43, any idea who has the desired hulls today, were one to buy a flat (or find examples) with the thought of reloading the empties?

7mm....is that hull on the right steel base?

 

[BUFF7MM]

Those look like the "New" AA cases.

You have to look inside of the hulls, and see the "base wad".

Winchester's equipment for producing the "old" AA cases just simply wore out, and they re-tooled with "new and so-called improved" machinery, and it is NOTHING like the old cases, except for the AA name.

they look the same but the Winchester's base wad comes up the side just a little bit further.

 

[Redcobra]

Those look like the "New" AA cases.

You have to look inside of the hulls, and see the "base wad".

Winchester's equipment for producing the "old" AA cases just simply wore out, and they re-tooled with "new and so-called improved" machinery, and it is NOTHING like the old cases, except for the AA name.

Neither one of those are AAs. One looks like a Super Target and the other looks like an Estate which is a Cheddite. Chedites have 3 stars on the base and come in many brands. Even Kent uses cheddite hulls. Doesn't load the same as Wins.

 

[BUFF7MM]

BYF43 and Buff7mm, following this thread with interest.

43's mentioned load rings a bell as being identical to mine, but I likewise haven't pulled a handle on a shot shell press in 20 years.

43, any idea who has the desired hulls today, were one to buy a flat (or find examples) with the thought of reloading the empties?

7mm....is that hull on the right steel base?

They both are, I guess the one is brass plated.

 

[BUFF7MM]

Uncle Duke,
The Cheedite's I bought new must be brass plated steel also, magnet sticks to one I've loaded. Are these steel based hulls no good for reloading? I've done a second loading on about 10 but didn't resize the base since they will go back in the same gun.

 

[byf43]

BYF43 and Buff7mm, following this thread with interest.

43's mentioned load rings a bell as being identical to mine, but I likewise haven't pulled a handle on a shot shell press in 20 years.

43, any idea who has the desired hulls today, were one to buy a flat (or find examples) with the thought of reloading the empties?

7mm....is that hull on the right steel base?

Unc, "I" would buy some "Gun Club" loads, and use my old data for them.
I've got over 5,000 Claybuster wads squirreled away, and have some Red Dot, too.
I did load a bunch of the Gun Club cases for a 'casual' afternoon with some of the SCSC guys, at Metro Gun Club, a while back.
They all went 'bang' and I was "dusting" 23 to 24 birds per round of Trap (from the 16 yard line, that is!)

they look the same but the Winchester's base wad comes up the side just a little bit further.

Honestly, "I" would have to look at some printed data on the Cheddite hulls.
I've NEVER even held one. (It's been that long since I loaded other hulls.)

Neither one of those are AAs. One looks like a Super Target and the other looks like an Estate which is a Cheddite. Chedites have 3 stars on the base and come in many brands. Even Kent uses cheddite hulls. Doesn't load the same as Wins.

That's why I said that they "look like" AA hulls. I've not held any of the new Winchester hulls, but, I've talked with guys that say that they are a totally different 'animal' than the old "AA" hulls.

I don't like "change"! I like the Good Ole Days!

They both are, I guess the one is brass plated.

It's gotta be cheaper to produce steel bases.
Federal has been using steel for years and years.

 

[BUFF7MM]

So what exactly are these gun club hulls? What do they look like? Who makes them? Just curious so if I'm at the range and I run on to some I know to do some low crawling to scrounge them up.
And the Winchester AA's is that how they are marked? I saw some Winchester universal at Walmart yesterday and was wondering if they are the same. I'm confusing myself again.

 

[Redcobra]

So what exactly are these gun club hulls? What do they look like? Who makes them? Just curious so if I'm at the range and I run on to some I know to do some low crawling to scrounge them up.
And the Winchester AA's is that how they are marked? I saw some Winchester universal at Walmart yesterday and was wondering if they are the same. I'm confusing myself again.

Remington Gun Clubs are Green with ribbed sides.
Win AAs are marked "AA" and are red or grey. Universals are similar but a cheaper hull that won't last. One reload and toss.
I used to reload Rems and Wins, but found I had to adjust the press when switching hulls. All rems now, and can crank out a bunch while watching sports without even thinking about it. I do check my powder drops with a scale at the beginning of each loading session.
Again, what are you reloading for? Clays? 1-1/8ox, 1oz? What's your loader?

 

[byf43]

So what exactly are these gun club hulls? What do they look like? Who makes them? Just curious so if I'm at the range and I run on to some I know to do some low crawling to scrounge them up.
And the Winchester AA's is that how they are marked? I saw some Winchester universal at Walmart yesterday and was wondering if they are the same. I'm confusing myself again.

"Gun Club" loads are made/marketed by Remington.
They are as close to the OLD Win AA hulls as you can get, today, IMNSHO.
They are a fairly [COLOR="SeaGreen][B]"bright "GREEN[/B]"[/COLOR] hull, with BRASS low base.
Just for kicks and grins, I've never paid attention to loading a "Magnum" hunting load in "High Base" hulls vs. "Low Base" hulls.
(Yes, my old 3" Goose loads were all High Base hulls.) Pheasant loads...... Low Base. Trap...... Low Base. Turkey loads........ Low Base.

The Remington "STS Premier" (that's what I call 'em) are the same basic hull design/construction.
These, I've seen as [COLOR="Green"]medium green, to darker green.
[/COLOR]


The "new" Win AA hulls are a completely different animal than what used to be produced.
Honestly, I don't know of anyone that "likes" the "new AA" cases.

I'm at work, otherwise I'd go downstairs to my workshop and photo some of these hulls.

 

[BUFF7MM]

Remington Gun Clubs are Green with ribbed sides.
Win AAs are marked "AA" and are red or grey. Universals are similar but a cheaper hull that won't last. One reload and toss.
I used to reload Rems and Wins, but found I had to adjust the press when switching hulls. All rems now, and can crank out a bunch while watching sports without even thinking about it. I do check my powder drops with a scale at the beginning of each loading session.
Again, what are you reloading for? Clays? 1-1/8ox, 1oz? What's your loader?

I've been loading new Cheddite 2 3/4 high brass plastic base wad, pre primed with Cheddite primers, WAA12 wads, various Clays powder loads and 1 1/8 #4 lead shot. Data from Hodgdon website.
I'm using a Lee load all II right now, but am looking at a MEC sizemaster.
I stepped thru my charges with an RCBS Chargemaster 1500 as to make it easier to change powder weights, the Lee is a PITA to change bushings in with no way to stop the powder/shot from vacating the hoppers.

 

[BUFF7MM]

"Gun Club" loads are made/marketed by Remington.
They are as close to the OLD Win AA hulls as you can get, today, IMNSHO.
They are a fairly [COLOR="SeaGreen][B]"bright "GREEN[/B]"[/COLOR] hull, with BRASS low base.
Just for kicks and grins, I've never paid attention to loading a "Magnum" hunting load in "High Base" hulls vs. "Low Base" hulls.
(Yes, my old 3" Goose loads were all High Base hulls.) Pheasant loads...... Low Base. Trap...... Low Base. Turkey loads........ Low Base.

The Remington "STS Premier" (that's what I call 'em) are the same basic hull design/construction.
These, I've seen as [COLOR="Green"]medium green, to darker green.
[/COLOR]


The "new" Win AA hulls are a completely different animal than what used to be produced.
Honestly, I don't know of anyone that "likes" the "new AA" cases.

I'm at work, otherwise I'd go downstairs to my workshop and photo some of these hulls.

Maybe I can Talk you into a few pictures after work. I'd like to see a few so I know what I'm looking for.

 

[byf43]

I've been loading new Cheddite 2 3/4 high brass plastic base wad, pre primed with Cheddite primers, WAA12 wads, various Clays powder loads and 1 1/8 #4 lead shot. Data from Hodgdon website.
I'm using a Lee load all II right now, but am looking at a MEC sizemaster.
I stepped thru my charges with an RCBS Chargemaster 1500 as to make it easier to change powder weights, the Lee is a PITA to change bushings in with no way to stop the powder/shot from vacating the hoppers.

Buff,

I'm not familiar with the Lee machine.

My old MEC 600 Jr. has a steel sizer ring that used to get scratched BADLY with steel based hulls.

Some careful polishing of the sizer 'ring' and some white jeweler's rouge, made it shine like crazy.
No more scratches on the hulls. (Also, avoiding steel bases hulls became the norm.)

I picked up a MEC 9000 for a STEAL. ($125.) It has a "collet" sizer that takes the worries of scratches and tosses that thought.

One of my friends gave me another MEC machine. I have to look at it. It's either a "SizeMaster" or the "Grabber". It needs some parts, but, it also has that "collet" sizer.

 

[byf43]

Maybe I can Talk you into a few pictures after work. I'd like to see a few so I know what I'm looking for.

When I get home, I'll go to the workshop/loading room & take some pics.

I'll dig out the DSLR and try to make decent pics.